Newbie wanting a 997

Hi all,

Just registered to the forum - so be easy with me!

I currently own a E46 M3 SMG which I have owned for around 10 yrs. Cant fault the car in any way or form. High spec car with 1 previous owner with full dealer service history, completely unmolested.

As you could appreciate it the M3 has been true and reliable to me however it has come to that stage that I am now bored of the car and looking to purchase a 997.

My budget is around 25k max and looking to get a gen1 C2s (or C4s if I'm lucky).

What I would like is a manual (change from the SMG), Bose sound system with sub 70k miles on it.

I'm bit nervous in selling the M3 and making the jump to a 997. I have researched that the Gen1 had issues with the IMS especially with the early "S" (3.8ltr) cars and also having issues with the bore scoring.

My question is how common are the above faults and will 25k get you a nice 997?

Should i be going for a trip over a manual and/or should i save up the pennies and go for a gen2 to avoid future issues with the IMS and bore scoring?

So many questions are running through my head but looking for some honest/experienced answers!

thanks in advance!

If you search the forum you'll find lots of information that you will answer your questions.

Brief version;

IMS bearing was uprated ~2006, you can check by chassis number to see which sort is fitted.

Borescoring does affect some so have an inspection carried out beforehand.

Don't let it put you off though, they are awesome cars. You'll have to save a lot more wedge for the gen 2 too!

You could look for a gen' 1 that has had a full Hartech engine rebuild - problem solved. Some have just had work however so make sure you study the paperwork.

The 997 is definitely a step up from the E46 - feels much more of a sports car over the fast saloon M3 experience.

:welcome:

£25k should get a an early Gen1 in good condition. I would be looking for a car with an engine rebuild already done and preferably a new clutch, most likely from a private sale. Something like this one - http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201708228591985?

I would not be tempted to buy a car without having a PPI done.

Don't worry too much if the car does not have the Bose option, it's not all that impressive IMHO. There are better options to have - PSE, Sports Chrono, Sports Seats, Sunroof, etc.

If you want a Gen2 (which is the more desirable), then you will need at least £35k for the C2S. That said, the Gen2 non S model has a very similar power output to the Gen1 C2S, so perhaps that's another option?!

Good luck with your search!

:welcome: to 911uk jags'

Well done on finding us before looking for a car. :thumb:

Your budget will get you a nice 997.1 but I'd look for a 2007 onwards car.

I'm a Tiptronic fan (note there's only one r in Tiptronic) but it has been aid that the fact that these cars pull away in second as a matter of course can exacerbate the risk of bore scoring - especially on the 3.8 cars.

Read Hartech's excellent buyers guide.

Happy Hunting

Welcome to the forum, you have asked probably the most asked questions guys new to Porsche ask. So here's my 2p.
The IMS and borescore are both issues that some cars suffer with and theres a huge division between guys on the level of these issues.

IMS/
You can replace the ims for about £1k and a couple of companies are selling an improved option.
Many people consider the IMS issue more of an issue than borescore so to negate that worry you can get a car newer than march 06 or factor in £1k to your offer price and get it retro fitted asap.
Cars pre march 06 may have the old IMS Some late 05 early 06 cars got the new IMS but by march 06 all were the new type.

THESE ARE THE ENGINE NUMBERS INFO RE IMS

Last IMS revision before no IMS (Gen2 MA1 block):

997 Carrera 3.6 with engine numbers from M96/0569507475 are the new IMS design.

M96/05 = 997 3.6 Carrera NA
6 = 6 cylinders
9 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
07475 = cumulative production serial

This means some MY2005 benefit and all MY2006 onwards benefit.


997 Carrera S 3.8 with engine numbers from M97/0168509790 are the new IMS design.

M97/01 = 997 3.8 Carrera NA
6 = 6 cylinders
8 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
09790 = cumulative production serial

This means some MY2005 benefit and all MY2006 onwards benefit.


BORESCORE/

It IMO is not as prevalent as the internet would have you believe based on no one writes on a forum " guess what drove my 997 today and it was uneventful " whereas the few who do have a major engine issue shout loudly on the internet about it.
the widely talked about £10/12k engine rebuild not really factual as generally when an engine gets borescore its usually on 4 or 6 which are the most oil starved part of the flat 6 engine So infact you would only actually need to replace the 1 or 2 that have scored but what a lot do is replace a bank or the lot to future proof the car and then they get into "well while the engines out let do this and that to improve the car" and that how they rack up 10/12k.
IMO this issue is only going to happen to a relatively low % of cars up until a time/ mileage when any engine from any car would need a rebuild not just a 997.1.
There are a number of things you can do to minimize the risk of you being one of the few.

Whatever car you decide on get a PPI and borescope done this will ensure you know the car you buy is good and its £300/400 very very well spent.

the 3.6 engine suffers less reported incidents of borescore than the 3.8 engine some say its due to lower numbers sold than the 3.8 and some say its that the type of person that buys a 3.6 over a 3.8 from new is going to generally be more careful as an owner. personally I believe its down to the fact the 3.6 engine just isnt as boredout as the 3.8 and is generally a stronger unit.

The manual box cars suffers less than the auto box cars this is supposedly down to the auto default pull away is 2nd gear and that puts a strain on the engine.

whatever car you buy swap the oil to millers nano 10w50 and change it annually or 10/12k miles not the 2yr 20k Porsche recommend

fully warm the car up before going over 3000rpm and giving it the beans

Consider a Porsche Warranty these can be put on cars up to 14 years old but the car must pass an OPC 111 point check first. cost of Warranty is about 1k pa.

The prices of these cars are climbing so 25k is a fair budget and should get you into a post march 06 car so thats one issue less to keep you awake at night. the ppi and borescope will let you know that the car is good when you buy it so its then up to you to keep it that way by following the recommended guidelines. This should give you the very best chance of big grin trouble free motoring.

But remember this your beemer like pretty much any other car will have canned at least 10/12k off the value in depreciation over 5/6 years the 997 won't if looked after,it should hold its price and may even go up a bit So even if you happen to be one of the unlucky few it actually won't cost you any more over 5/6 years to run than the Beemer and you happily lost 10/12k off that so why worry the 997 might if unlucky cost you just the same as the Beemer. thats the cup half full view lol .

Heads up if you find a nice one DONT put it on the open forum for thoughts as there are lots of lurkers who will move on it before you can if everyone says it good. Pick one or two member you think can help and PM them for thoughts most will be happy to help.

Good luck in your search and keep us posted on progress :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Now go and read War and Peace for some light reading :floor: :floor: :floor:

Great thread and you are in a similar position to me but I'm coming from a Boxster. Some great advise given so far. Hopefully we don't end up fighting over the same car LOL

TonyC911 said:

:welcome:

£25k should get a an early Gen1 in good condition. I would be looking for a car with an engine rebuild already done and preferably a new clutch, most likely from a private sale. Something like this one - http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201708228591985?

I would not be tempted to buy a car without having a PPI done.

Don't worry too much if the car does not have the Bose option, it's not all that impressive IMHO. There are better options to have - PSE, Sports Chrono, Sports Seats, Sunroof, etc.

If you want a Gen2 (which is the more desirable), then you will need at least £35k for the C2S. That said, the Gen2 non S model has a very similar power output to the Gen1 C2S, so perhaps that's another option?!

Good luck with your search!

Click to expand...

That does look nice and one bank rebuilt the usual suspect one, plus the ims.
midnight blue is nice and it looks like a nice straight example. :thumb:

I was in a similar position to yourself some 6 months back. I've had an e46 m3 and currently still own a nice e36m3. Like any car, not least the HG, subframe, vanished and big end bearing issues on an M3 the Porsche 997 issues are well documented and the advise you've received above is spot on.

If you can source a car with a rebuild by Hartech or other well knownn specialists that's a good starting point and either way a PPI is a must. I bought through the OPc network and paid 30k (feb 2107) for an exceptionally well speced late 2005 997.1 s, Carbon Ceramics, PSE, sports suspension, short shift etc and they spent a bob or two pre delivery following it's inspection. Later IMS bearing according to engine number.

From memory, new ac condenser and regas, 6 new spark,plugs, new drive belt, 2 new tyres, drive belt, cam tensioner seal replacement, new lower level,horn, coolant pipes replaced and fuel cap, new key. In the 5000 I've done it's been in for a new loom for the memory mirrors and waterpump, fortunately under warranty . Also it's had new damper bumpstops tie rod and and a coffin arm which I've been lucky to get some dealer contribution towards. In a nutshell go in with a a good size kitty for repairs buying privately but if you can, buy from a reputable Indy or OPC. You might pay a premium but it'll be worth it. Porsche assistance have picked up and delivered my car to OPC of choice and provided premium hire car for a week. I reckon it's had close on 5k of recent work including pre delivery and recent warranty work.

Don't expect it to be much quicker than your M3. It will,however feel more special. I love mine despite the recent woes. You might drop on a car that is privately sold with Porsche warranty. However, this warranty is quite vague about what is excluded under 'wear and tear' somdue dilligence is the key.
You won't regret if you get a good one. Ask to see receipts for bushes and suspension refresh, if it's not been done it will be due on a 10 yr old car.

hence i purchased a my2006 3.6....

only had it 9 months and it is fun to drive, just worried when the wife uses it

:welcome:

Lots coming from M3's so you will have first hand experiences to help you decide.

:thumb:

Welcome Jags!

I'm going to leave the IMS/Bore Scoring question to others as what I've learnt on that I've learnt from them, so why regurgitate it.

So, to other things that I have direct experience of. Decide carefully whether you want a 2W or 4WD by driving both if you can. It's much more than the badge on the back. They are very different beasts. 2WD feels like a shove in the back, I've often described it as feeling like I'm sat on the back axle. 4WD feels way more balanced, at first less exciting (or at least a less unique characteristic) but ultimately it has since encouraged me to feel much more confident to push on, so the excitement now exceeds that characteristic.

If you do think about a 4S, can I suggest a 996 is at least considered? With your budget you could get a good one and I personally have come to prefer the 996 C4S to the 997 C4S (my 4WD ownership comes from Turbo and I've only had 997s, so that's an independent view too).

I've not had a Tip, but I did have a PDK. Like the change from 2W to 4WD, when I switched from PDK to manual I thought I'd made a mistake. Although that's in the context of the PDK being light years ahead of the Tip. If it was a daily driver I probably have made a mistake. I now avoid traffic more and I know I drive it for different journeys than I did my 977.2 C2 (this might be partly the power of the Turbo as well as the manual, but it's mostly the manual).

However, on those other journeys I am definately starting to see exactly what the manual enthusiasts crave. Now I'm used to the gear changes I'm working at getting better at them. It's something to do, something to work out in the corners. You don't get that from a PDK, let alone a Tip.

If you can stretch to a Gen2 I would* (in fact I did - I too started with a £25k budget and found another 10k - prices have been static and slightly upwards since). I can tell you that you'll be very happy with a 3.6 coming out of an M3. I would get the PASM and PSE options for it though. It's quiet (although the engine note sounds epic and undisrupted) and it rides very high without them.

*because:
- peace of mind, even if the problems are exaggerated, it's nice to have it
- the PCM is a lot better (not having Bluetooth or an aux in is a ball-ache)
- it's pretty well settled that it will now forever be the high point of the NA water-cooled era
- it's more powerful
- going PDK isn't a bad choice, it's at least neutral

OP, will it be a daily driver? It isn't so much about mileage, it's about how it has been looked after.

Bose is pointless, don't confuse it with the Bose you find in a BMW, it basically adds a sub in a 997. There are better ways to fix that in a non bose car. PCM2.1 is awful, upgrade the head unit to something nice and new with android auto/apple carplay.

PSE is awesome.
Sports Chrono is really nice if you drive in a sporty manner.
Manual is best, by miles, again, if you drive in a sporty manner.

Don't get bogged down in looking for a rebuilt engine car. One which is right and looked after is just fine. Get it PPI'd and Boroscoped to check the cylinders, should cost a couple of hundred quid to do but well worth it. Or, get a porsche warranty on it for peace of mind.

I've had mine 2.5 years now (2007 C2S manual cabrio) and love it. It is in exceptional condition, and has been looked after (tons of paperwork). Love it, its my daily driver.

IMS is the important one, look for a 2006 car (well ok the right engine numbers and on) or one which has had it done. Lots of earlier cars will of had it done.

One thing about that car linked to, the grey interior is the worst, looks old fashioned, and will hold the car back when you come to sell it. Don't get hung up on colour, it's more important to get a car in good condition. Look at all the known dealers like RSJ, 911V and so on, they might have a car for you at 25k, but might not. Gen 2 does take away some of the worry, but there are cases of Gen2's going pop, though rare. A good Gen 1 is just as good as a Gen2!

Lastly, make sure you drive a few, you will then get an idea of what a good one feels like. C4S is a very different animal to a C2S because of the 4 wheel drive system. Test driving a 911 isn't exactly a chore, I took 6 out

Get to Ireland and buy this immediately!

https://www.pistonheads.com/classif...he-911-997-gen-ii-carrera-2s-pdk-2008/7679824

That's a cheap gen 2.