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coullstar
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 492
Location: Aberdeen/Torphins


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree its a good scheme you have set up and I know it is attractive to many people and helps spread the costs.

For me there a distance issue from yourselves and also the fact I do a lot of work on my own cars so labour costs are not too much of an issue. I do see however that your saying labour is a big cost for an engine rebuild, which I wouldn't take on myself.

Plenty to think about for sure.
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wasz
Albert Park


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1708


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't make sense to rebuild when you can buy a reasonable working 996 for £12k still.

Scaring people into thinking they all need rebuilding at 100k isn't particularly constructive.

Because they don't IMO.

Lots in this thread have done much more than that. But perhaps its best to rebuild periodically if you want it to last forever.

I suspect most owners keep for maybe 3 years or so.

EDIT: I wasn't intending to discredit Baz's comments here, au contraire I find them very informative.

I was seeking to reassure that there are many cars with massive mileages running fine in this thread, when you choose to do work is a personal decision based on risk and cost. Clearly, as Baz says - more expensive work later can be reduced by earlier rebuilds.


Last edited by wasz on Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
 
  
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ragpicker
Paul Ricard


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3050
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazhart wrote:

Ragpicker - I would recommend a 10/50 and Millers Nanodrive.

Baz


Roger that!

Thanks Baz Thumb
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 803
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasz I am entirely content with people posting different views - that is what these forums are for and I am totally happy for readers to make up their own minds on the balance of the evidence they read. what I am opposed to is contributors stating that our intentions are to "scare people into having pre-emptive rebuilds" or stating that providing detailed information backed up by experience, qualifications and probably the largest numbers involved in the analysis - is not constructive, whereas the opinion of one owner - apparently is.

You can say that the truth scares YOU (or others that have expressed that view) but you cannot state what our intentions were and your opinion is completely wrong. Your post is like saying that opinions that smoking increases the risk of cancer are wrong because you know someone that smoked and did not die of cancer. It is like saying that statistics backed up by medical science about smoking are not constructive. It is like saying you are going to take the risk so everyone else should.

It might be scary to read what smoking can do but it does not stop anyone from participating if they want to but surely better to do so knowing the risks than being oblivious of them - especially if the writer offers some form of help in avoiding the worst outcomes - or to take the better decision (like we do) - that is entirely constructive.

We can do the whole job (Non Maintenance Plan) of replacing the crankshaft shells (which is the main issue we have raised with over 100K cars) for £3630 + Vat or add in strengthening cylinders as well against cracking for £4110 + Vat - much less if the owner can remove and refit their engine (as and auxiliaries )as Coulstar probably could), even less if they can strip and rebuild their engine and much less if they are on our Maintenance Plan.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not to state what the intentions of others were and ours are based entirely on the educated, researched and factual observations that crankshaft failure in the cars that are now beginning to exceed 100K are becoming the most common cause of failures and forcing some to scrap their cars when an accumulation of other weak spots also begin to creep into failures at those mileages, cars that still run well will appreciate in value and last many more years and all the weaknesses can be repaired - many with better results that the original design.

There are always exceptions to any statistics but they do not negate the evidence - merely make the level of risk more clear to those without access to hard evidence upon which to make their decisions.

Knowing much more about the technical problems and dealing with the consequences places a responsibility on those involved that others can ignore through ignorance.

We feel it would be irresponsible not to add into this post the other side of the argument from probably the most experienced position to comment - but this does not make anyone do anything they don't want to and does not prevent anyone from continuing to drive for ever increasing mileages - if they want to.

What our belief has done is provide investment into viable solutions, advice about oil grades, benefits of fitting LTT's, warnings about the short comings of a 3rd radiator without some control system, our facility (and others around the World) where businesses have created more efficient ways to help owners than simply fitting another new engine with the same technology.

We will continue to flourish whether or not owners consider a pre-emptive rebuild at and around 100K but reporting that some people managed high mileages OK without another post clarifying the more general situation would also mislead owners into a false sense of security and possibly regret it.

Just like with smoking I would rather be trying to help someone who ignored reliable advice of choice and got it wrong than someone who was oblivious of the dangers because no one informed them in time. Furthermore - providing information on the availability of solutions and somewhere to go, lots of Internet reports and access to guides - if a problem hits an owner - can only be constructive while the various alternatives posted provide choices.

Baz
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ragpicker
Paul Ricard


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3050
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got to admit, Baz, that I read your contribution objectively as entirely constructive. Its great that you share your experience from a technical standpoint and it is very valuable to someone like me who is very interested in this side of things.

Nobody can force anyone to have a rebuild, nor force them to use Hartech. Options are there for everyone and if you want to plug your maintenance plan as a forum sponser in exchange for sharing your expertise then why shouldn't you? Ken from 9e is very generous with his knowledge on here and does the same.

This thread has been very interesting on lots of levels, it would be a shame for it to be blown off course..

Thumb
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alex yates
Shanghai
Shanghai


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 10774
Location: Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree
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Bluebird911
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 341



PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Baz,

The estimates for the work are really helpful and the appraoch to pre-emptive maintaince is often difficult and a very personal one. Do I drive as is and wait for the 'chance' that it may go bang and face a more than £10k bill for a car that isn't worth much more, or do I spend the approx. £4K significantly lessen such event and have peace of mind!

High performance engines are subject to high stresses, but in my opinion, the Porsche engine has a greater longevity than most. Ferraris and Maseratis would have had a 'recommended' rebuild long before 100k and a BMW M6 V10 (that I am interested in) has its bearings shot at 50k miles and anything over that mileage should have an engine rebuild factored in.

Nothing wrong with going beyond these mileages as an approach as you may be lucky with a 'goodun'. But as the cars get older, some of the parts that are destroyed by an engine failure may be difficult / impossible to source. In this regard, those of us who have owned 1930 / 40s vintage cars take no such risks - though an MG engine is much easier / simple to work on!!
 
  
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Chigster
Silverstone


Joined: 14 Jan 2016
Posts: 129



PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree that this is all super helpful and the dialogue on these forums is a great way for the less clued up and more impulsive buyers like me to get to know the ins and out and options available - And apologies to the OP for the direction that the thread has taken!

Having taken a gander at the Engine bay earlier today in reaction to the Baywatch post, I noticed that there are bright orange paint marks along a number of seams and joints (which would suggest they were put on to ensure that parts aligned when the engine was opened up. So much as I believe the engine is untouched, is there any way of working out if any work has been done on the engine internals previously - beyond opening it up?
 
  
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wasz
Albert Park


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1708


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get it, I don't need patronising with terrible analogies. I'm sorry if you were offended by the suggestion of scare mongering, but that is how I read your posts.

PC
 
  
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Bluebird911
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 341



PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on Wasz,

I think scaremongering is a bit strong! I for one hope your views don't put Baz off from contributing his experiences free of charge! This is a wealth of experience that owners of 996s can only benefit from, particularly on an enthusiast's forum. Along with Ken and Mike at Sports and Classic, they help us understand what is going on inside our cars engines and gearboxes to make better informed decisions. Hartech must have opened up hundreds of engines and Baz is reporting back to us the common wear / failure modes.

I have my car serviced by Hartech and I for one can vouch that they don't market for work but say it as it is. It is good to listen to these experts in a conversation after having work done on the car. Indeed, often I have to push them to carry out some aspects of work on my car that they rate as OK, so I believe I get good advice about what work is necessary and what is not.

Not wishing to hear about the common wear areas in the engine won't make them go away - better to have the knowledge I say.
 
  
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MNC911
Österreich


Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 916
Location: Prestbury


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sitting on the fence and looking at both sides of the coin I get the historic 100k mls avoidance and yet engines through the years have better design and longevity.

So on the one hand it's a good miles stone and cap off to the manufacturer.

On the other hand a vehicle that's completed 100k mls will also carry a certain amount of buyer beware.

We've seen this discussion time and time again. Firstly it's not always about the engine, it's the whole vehicle, from wheel bearings, to electical items, suspension they've all been working for 100k mls. Miles is one thing another factor is operating hours. Everything wears out, whether it's moving parts or not.

As for scare mongering, well let's not throw spears at members. Porsche AG haven't exactly helped themselves with bore scoring and the stupid IMS design that it kept in production until 2008. If 100k miles wasn't an issue then we need to stop informing potential buyers of having any Pre Purchase Independent Inspections.

I for one am genuinely pleased with members whose vehicles reach milestones. Most often than not it's their P&J and for some their only enjoyment. So hats off to those owners who keep them looking good on the bodywork as well as under the bodywork. Thumb Thumb Thumb
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MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5248
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the input Baz, I hope you can come out of your bunker soon.
I will probably get oil analysis done on my oil to look for changes in the hope of having something a bit more scientific to go on than just mileage for when to do preventative maintenance, on 59k now.

MC
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 803
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's OK Wasz, you have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine.

However I have not suggested your response was for some ulterior motive - indeed I have accepted your right to take a risk if you want to and understand your position without casting any doubts about your reasons. Equally I do not expect anyone to tell the readership what my motives are.

I just think to write off extensive research and analysis and providing lengthy patient accurate and genuine information for readers as "just to scare people into doing something implied for our commercial benefit" is not only disrespectful but misleading.

My analogy was not patronising but just trying to explain that for the experts (which we are) some realities can be scary but I think that they still have a responsibility to inform those less able to understand the situation so they can make informed decisions one way or the other and although it may not have been in the best taste, I thought it did that and I could have made it a lot more scary by showing pictures of wrecked engines and stories of owners that had to scrap their cars. I thought my posts were factual and not sensationalised.

Providing accurate information may be scary to some but that doesn't mean that the provider intended that to be the response nor that it is right for those that really understand the problems to keep quiet about it and allow the general public to be exploited by ignorance.

By all means make your own choices but please do not try and discredit my intentions nor the facts I provide - especially when they are part of advice that can minimise failures that we give freely.

The LTT, oil advice, warm up procedure advice, and indeed mileages that require attention are all intended to help owners avoid the most serious and expensive problems (and I have not noticed anyone argue against that).

Similarly engineering solutions that support weak open deck cylinders, alter coolant flow, replace damaged cylinders, get pistons re-coated etc etc all are provided to help reduce future failures and increase reliability.

We would have made more profit from simply keeping quiet and fixing the greater number of engines that failed as a result with more expensive rebuilds that the increased damage would require and we would have had every right to exclude engine rebuilds from our Maintenance Plan as they are caused by established design weaknesses that later models were modified to correct - but we didn't.

Many careful owners who were lucky enough to buy a car where all the variables in manufacturing quality and machining tolerances were all on the right side, where previous owners did all the right things, who have taken advice and modified some issues and ensured that they have only driven spiritedly after warming up (or anyway drive carefully) may well cover huge mileages - equally we have repaired engines after under 20K when the opposite has been the case or found on track some internal parts last less than 1K.

I hope my posts have at least made owners of such high mileage cars aware of the risks and be looking out for signs of when it might be best to undertake a rebuild that might avoid unnecessary addition costs by leaving it too late - and have informed them how they might reduce that eventual cost - or achieve a performance increase within the costs - as an incentive - that's all.

Engine issues can all be a bit of a gamble but informing others about it and providing solutions does nothing to make the worst more likely to happen, might enable some to avoid unnecessary costs and providing cost guidelines may help others planning to make appropriate decisions - I hope so anyway and that is entirely my intentions.

Meanwhile to all those - for whatever reason - prepared to plod on with miles regardless and take the risk - I sincerely hope it pays off for you.

Baz
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wasz
Albert Park


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 1708


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bazhart wrote:
Meanwhile to all those - for whatever reason - prepared to plod on with miles regardless and take the risk - I sincerely hope it pays off for you.


Thanks Baz. Thumb

For me it will - I've seen rollers with dead engines recently bid on ebay for more than I paid for my (almost) fully working car a few years back.

If it makes it to 180k+ and snaps its crank, well, it has done its time and I have had my fun, my car will probably be broken for spares.

Now if my car was worth say £20k, I may well be knocking on your door for some pre emptive work. But it isn't, and I doubt many 100k+ 996 Carrera are.
 
  
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Marky911
Österreich


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 931



PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah

Exactly!
£10k on preventative work on a £15k car, when there are no signs of imminent failure?! Cuckoo, cuckoo!

Every used 100k miles engine in the world could be about to go bang but most don't. That's what running a higher mileage car is... risk assessment.

So let's say you decide to wipe out your bank account and have a rebuild done on a healthy car and lets face it £10k would be a big chunk out of most 996 Carrera owners bank accounts as we are in "the cheaper model" for a reason.

Now let's speculate (as that's what a lot of the above is) and say that had you not had it built it may have lasted until 130k miles. If it's a summer car (which many are now) doing 3k per year, then you could have had another 10 years motoring without spending that.

Stuff that thanks. Like I say it's all about your approach to the risks of which I'm under no illusion there are many with these engines, but personally I'd just continue to use and maintain the car and worry about things if my oil analysis comes back with any bad news.

In the meantime I'll take the family on some nice holidays and make some nice memories. Cars are great and I'm obsessed with them but they're only a tiny part of life. Spending huge sums because it may break down?? Floor
I think some of us may be getting a bit neurotic.


Oh and just for clarity, yes Hartech are brilliant at what they do so no I'm not having a pop. I'm just airing my view on £10k preemptive rebuilds. Thumb
 
  
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C4-STORM
Trainee


Joined: 29 Aug 2017
Posts: 81
Location: Hampshire

2004 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you follow regular maintenance and checks, the 'pre-emptive' work can be done when signs of failure are imminent.

If you are unlucky, sudden failures can occur but that is true in life of many things and most of us have researched the risks of ownership before hand.

Hartech are clearly experts and excellent at what they do.

There is no one-size fits all answer to this debate as age/mileage/condition is all relative to cost of vehicle.

All the above debate is interesting never the less.. thumbsup
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Bluebird911
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 29 May 2010
Posts: 341



PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasz and Marky,

I'm not challengng your views or opinions, but for accuracy, where do you get your £10k figure from? Baz's guidance price for a crank repair is around £4k.

If it is really a £10k rebuild that is needed, (new bore liners etc) the engine will be on its last legs and this cost unavoidable.
 
  
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Chigster
Silverstone


Joined: 14 Jan 2016
Posts: 129



PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This for sale thread kind of sums up one side of the argument.

Bandit

http://www.911uk.com/ads_item.php?id=7844
 
  
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C4-STORM
Trainee


Joined: 29 Aug 2017
Posts: 81
Location: Hampshire

2004 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chigster wrote:
This for sale thread kind of sums up one side of the argument.

Bandit

http://www.911uk.com/ads_item.php?id=7844


So at the time when that work was carried out would have almost been an uneconomic repair Question
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Marky911
Österreich


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 931



PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem bluebird, it's all just opinion. Thumb

Baz said
"So a pre-emptive rebuild with the new parts fitted for around £7.500 + Vat that eliminates or protects the weak areas can make some comparative sense for those intending to keep and enjoy the car"

You can gonin and do less but if you're going in that far it would be a slightly schizophrenic approach to maintenance to say "Ok I'll rip my fully working engine to bits but I'm not going to strengthen the cylinders etc, I'll do the bare minimum".

Again it's all just our own take on things and how we perceive risk.
 
  
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