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DucatiRob
Suzuka


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1145
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Rough running and CEL Reply with quote

I have had this issue on and off since fitting a dual cone air intake system to suit the wing/deck lid I have fitted. Prior to my engine being rebuilt by Hartech the problem seemed to have settled down except for being a little fluffy around 2000 rpm, and the power curve being a little peaky. I know that I need a remap but prior to the engine rebuild was not a good time and now I need to run it in before I can get it to Wayne at chipwizards!

The engine has generally been running well since the rebuild (5 weeks), I had one instance about a week after collecting it where it began to run a little rough and misfire, the CEL came in briefly then disappeared and after 10 mins or so it was back to normal! Until Sunday it has been fine, then I had exactly the same issue except the CEL came on and stayed on.

I connected my cheap OBD Bluetooth/torque App. and got the following error codes:

P2180 System Too Rich Off Idle Bank 2
P0300 Random Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0306 Cylinder 6 Misfire Detected
P0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected

I have cleared the error codes and driven it once, apart from seeming to be a little rough at first it was fine and no more CEL or error codes.

I am going to speak with Hartech as when I picked up the car Grant did mention I might see the odd CEL, I should have asked him why this might be, maybe just the ECU settling down after everything being disconnected!

Interesting that the cylinder misfires are on the two cylinders that were scored, can only imagine that this is a coincidence! I am fairly sure the issue is down to the air intake, combined with topgear exhaust and new headers, but I want to make sure everything else is ok before getting it re-mapped in the next month or so.

Will be checking for any air leaks in the air intake, MAF being contaminated etc! Wondering if there is a possibility of the Cats breaking down, any way to check this? Anything else I might check?

Thoughts and input appreciated!
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jonno_
Monza


Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 166
Location: Oxfordshire

2005 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear the problems keep coming!

I'm sure someone else had some issues with the Top Gear exhaust recently - rough running or cel I can't recall.
Best of luck sorting.
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Demort
Paul Ricard


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 3017
Location: Sussex


PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a theory with some exhaust mods causeing problems while others dont seem to ..

My idear is that there was an existing problem which the mod has made more obvious .

Your fault codes could easily lead down 2 different pathes .. misfire being one route and too rich on B2 being another .

I have a hunch with no real basis but something i would like proved first on this is that the high lift solinoid bank 2 is ok .. either a replacement or just swop bank to bank as this will transfer the fault to the other side .

There is no actual Porsche fault code for this solinoid fault and different testers tend to give different codes .. mine at work always gives a lambda swoped code but on here ive never seen that although many people have proved the solinoids to be faulty.

Over rich .. hmm .. maf, injectors leaking , cam timing .. may be not that but i would prefer the solinoid check first .

Thats my 2 pennys anyways.
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DucatiRob
Suzuka


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1145
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
I have a theory with some exhaust mods causeing problems while others dont seem to ..

My idear is that there was an existing problem which the mod has made more obvious .

Your fault codes could easily lead down 2 different pathes .. misfire being one route and too rich on B2 being another .

I have a hunch with no real basis but something i would like proved first on this is that the high lift solinoid bank 2 is ok .. either a replacement or just swop bank to bank as this will transfer the fault to the other side .

There is no actual Porsche fault code for this solinoid fault and different testers tend to give different codes .. mine at work always gives a lambda swoped code but on here ive never seen that although many people have proved the solinoids to be faulty.

Over rich .. hmm .. maf, injectors leaking , cam timing .. may be not that but i would prefer the solinoid check first .

Thats my 2 pennys anyways.


Thanks Dermot. Just to be clear, i had no problems when I first fitted the exhaust, only after fitting the dual cone air filters. That's not to say the combination of both have compounded to create the fault.

Previously I have had over rich faults on both banks, the misfire faults are new though.

The solenoids are something I had thought about, not sure what sort of fault they would create if they were playing up, but will try swapping them over anyway just to see whether I get a bank 1 over rich fault.
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Phil 997
Yas Marina


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 8684
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob ,
1/are you running oiled cone filters if so get some dry ones mate as it could be oil on the maff ,I had it when I used K&N filters as they use a heavier oil the bmc . pipercross will do you a special order dry filter but you may lose some of the induction roar but the air intake will be the same.
2/ did you reuse the lambdas when you fitted the 200 cell cats or did you buy new also when the engine was rebuild could the cats / lambda have taken a knock somewhere during the engine removal as the lambdas are super sensitive
3/ are you running rich because you need a remap or the new engine is still learning what set up to settle into.
4/ have you got gt3 throttle body / plenum on yours

Question Question Question
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DucatiRob
Suzuka


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1145
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
Rob ,
1/are you running oiled cone filters if so get some dry ones mate as it could be oil on the maff ,I had it when I used K&N filters as they use a heavier oil the bmc . pipercross will do you a special order dry filter but you may lose some of the induction roar but the air intake will be the same.
2/ did you reuse the lambdas when you fitted the 200 cell cats or did you buy new also when the engine was rebuild could the cats / lambda have taken a knock somewhere during the engine removal as the lambdas are super sensitive
3/ are you running rich because you need a remap or the new engine is still learning what set up to settle into.
4/ have you got gt3 throttle body / plenum on yours

Question Question Question


Hi Phil

In answer to your Question s

1. No, the cones are dry, so no chance of the MAF being fouled by oil.
2. I don't have 200 cell cats, still running the original ones, possible that they may have taken a knock during the rebuild but I expect Hartech knowing their stuff would take good care!
3. I think this is the case, I understand that it takes a while for the ECU to settle down and needs a few full power runs through the gears, can't do that until the engine is well run in, but I have dobe this previously! I will be getting a remap as soon as the engine is run in properly but want to make sure everything else is tickety boo beforehand!
4. No GT3 throttle body on mine.... yet!
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Phil 997
Yas Marina


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 8684
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DucatiRob wrote:
Phil 997 wrote:
Rob ,
1/are you running oiled cone filters if so get some dry ones mate as it could be oil on the maff ,I had it when I used K&N filters as they use a heavier oil the bmc . pipercross will do you a special order dry filter but you may lose some of the induction roar but the air intake will be the same.
2/ did you reuse the lambdas when you fitted the 200 cell cats or did you buy new also when the engine was rebuild could the cats / lambda have taken a knock somewhere during the engine removal as the lambdas are super sensitive
3/ are you running rich because you need a remap or the new engine is still learning what set up to settle into.
4/ have you got gt3 throttle body / plenum on yours

Question Question Question


Hi Phil

In answer to your Question s

1. No, the cones are dry, so no chance of the MAF being fouled by oil.
2. I don't have 200 cell cats, still running the original ones, possible that they may have taken a knock during the rebuild but I expect Hartech knowing their stuff would take good care!
3. I think this is the case, I understand that it takes a while for the ECU to settle down and needs a few full power runs through the gears, can't do that until the engine is well run in, but I have dobe this previously! I will be getting a remap as soon as the engine is run in properly but want to make sure everything else is tickety boo beforehand!
4. No GT3 throttle body on mine.... yet!



Grin Rob not sure why I ended up with 3 Question lol
well good that all those except part of Q3 can be discounted , you are right a few good hard full power runs are needed for the ecu to learn correctly but understand why that cant be done at the moment if your considering a GT3 tb/plen best fit that before the remap or agree a re-tweak price in advance with the mappers for when you do fit one. Thumb Thumb
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kurlykris
Kyalami


Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Posts: 1761
Location: Warwickshire


PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for clarification, engine rebuilt, NEW plugs and Coilpacks fitted Question

And just because they are New, they could be faulty straight out of the box, might be worth swapping them around to see if the error codes change too Thumb

I get a CEL sometimes on my Boxster, lambda sensor not efficient, usually when I get held up during the warming up process and keep the revs too low nooo
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DucatiRob
Suzuka


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1145
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurlykris wrote:
Just for clarification, engine rebuilt, NEW plugs and Coilpacks fitted Question

And just because they are New, they could be faulty straight out of the box, might be worth swapping them around to see if the error codes change too Thumb

I get a CEL sometimes on my Boxster, lambda sensor not efficient, usually when I get held up during the warming up process and keep the revs too low nooo


Yes, I had new coil packs and plugs during the engine build.

I am trying to do longer journeys during the running in process, even taking the long route to work on the odd occasion I use it to commute. I am careful during warming up but making sure the engine has a decent work out without being silly.

I think I will take it for a good run over the weekend see if the problem comes back, if it does I will try swapping over the cam solenoids!
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monster
Hockenheim


Joined: 04 Sep 2010
Posts: 632
Location: Bournemouth


PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
I have a hunch with no real basis but something i would like proved first on this is that the high lift solinoid bank 2 is ok .. either a replacement or just swop bank to bank as this will transfer the fault to the other side .

There is no actual Porsche fault code for this solinoid fault and different testers tend to give different codes .. mine at work always gives a lambda swoped code but on here ive never seen that although many people have proved the solinoids to be faulty.
.


I had the same symptoms you describe Rob, and I followed this advice from Demort at the time and swapped the solenoids between banks and the problem (fault codes) moved to the cylinders on the other bank, proving that was where the fault lay - I'd defiantly try what Demort is suggesting here first. thumbsup
 
  
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Alfaian
Montreal


Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 618
Location: S.wales


PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess rob is the cone air filter.

You're running the car in so, I presume at relatively low to medium rpm?

The engine is being starved of cold air to maximise fuel mixture burn imo. It's getting hot air from inside the engine bay instead.

I would bet that if you re installed the original air box with a bmc filter, your problem will be solved.

Thumb
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DucatiRob
Suzuka


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1145
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfaian wrote:
My guess rob is the cone air filter.

You're running the car in so, I presume at relatively low to medium rpm?

The engine is being starved of cold air to maximise fuel mixture burn imo. It's getting hot air from inside the engine bay instead.

I would bet that if you re installed the original air box with a bmc filter, your problem will be solved.

Thumb


Ian, you are probably right, all the problems have been since I have fitted the twin cone filter, however it is not open to the engine bay. There is a carbon air box that mates with the air ducts on the turbo wing. If it is the twin cones, my assumption is that either the ECU cannot compensate for the extra airflow or there is some issue with the MAF!

However... today I used the car for my daily commute, fine on the way to work but on the way home I got the CEL again, engine was running fine and no misfiring or rough running! Checked for errors when I got home and got.

P2180 - System too rich off idle - Bank 2

No misfiring fault codes this time! Very odd!

Thinking your suggestion to put the original air box back on is a good idea, will have to put the original deck lid back on too, bit of a pain! At least I can then confirm or rule out if the twin cone intake is the source of the issues!
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Alfaian
Montreal


Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 618
Location: S.wales


PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DucatiRob wrote:
Alfaian wrote:
My guess rob is the cone air filter.

You're running the car in so, I presume at relatively low to medium rpm?

The engine is being starved of cold air to maximise fuel mixture burn imo. It's getting hot air from inside the engine bay instead.

I would bet that if you re installed the original air box with a bmc filter, your problem will be solved.

Thumb


Ian, you are probably right, all the problems have been since I have fitted the twin cone filter, however it is not open to the engine bay. There is a carbon air box that mates with the air ducts on the turbo wing. If it is the twin cones, my assumption is that either the ECU cannot compensate for the extra airflow or there is some issue with the MAF!

However... today I used the car for my daily commute, fine on the way to work but on the way home I got the CEL again, engine was running fine and no misfiring or rough running! Checked for errors when I got home and got.

P2180 - System too rich off idle - Bank 2

No misfiring fault codes this time! Very odd!

Thinking your suggestion to put the original air box back on is a good idea, will have to put the original deck lid back on too, bit of a pain! At least I can then confirm or rule out if the twin cone intake is the source of the issues!


Good idea rob Thumb

I reckon the maf is all over the place with its readings and giving the engine too much fuel to compensate.

I'd say the plugs on the o/s bank will be sooted up if you were to take them out also.

Too much fuel can make the car misfire too.

That's my theory anyway Smile
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DucatiRob
Suzuka


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1145
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfaian wrote:
DucatiRob wrote:
Alfaian wrote:
My guess rob is the cone air filter.

You're running the car in so, I presume at relatively low to medium rpm?

The engine is being starved of cold air to maximise fuel mixture burn imo. It's getting hot air from inside the engine bay instead.

I would bet that if you re installed the original air box with a bmc filter, your problem will be solved.

Thumb


Ian, you are probably right, all the problems have been since I have fitted the twin cone filter, however it is not open to the engine bay. There is a carbon air box that mates with the air ducts on the turbo wing. If it is the twin cones, my assumption is that either the ECU cannot compensate for the extra airflow or there is some issue with the MAF!

However... today I used the car for my daily commute, fine on the way to work but on the way home I got the CEL again, engine was running fine and no misfiring or rough running! Checked for errors when I got home and got.

P2180 - System too rich off idle - Bank 2

No misfiring fault codes this time! Very odd!

Thinking your suggestion to put the original air box back on is a good idea, will have to put the original deck lid back on too, bit of a pain! At least I can then confirm or rule out if the twin cone intake is the source of the issues!


Good idea rob Thumb

I reckon the maf is all over the place with its readings and giving the engine too much fuel to compensate.

I'd say the plugs on the o/s bank will be sooted up if you were to take them out also.

Too much fuel can make the car misfire too.

That's my theory anyway Smile


My thinking too Ian, I'm just confused over the fault being on Bank 2 only!! Dont know
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Alfaian
Montreal


Joined: 12 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably greedier than the other side Laughing
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DucatiRob
Suzuka


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1145
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I finally got around to removing the dual cone intake and turbo wing yesterday and put the standard airbox and deck lid back on to see if it was this causing all my problems! Hey presto... all seems good again! I went for a good drive yesterday and the engine is running sweet and so far no CELs!

For some background, after fitting the dual cone intake I have had running problems and CELs for over rich running and misfires, although this did settle down after a while, initially just rough idling, a bit of a flat spot at around 3000 rpm but the engine would pull strongly past 5000 rpm, probably better than before!

I had a full Hartech engine rebuild in April, initially the engine ran as before but after a few weeks I started to be CELs again and the engine would intermittently run quite rough, I got some misfire codes on cylinders 1 and 4 and the over Rich fault code permanently, the flat spot at 3000 rpm developed into almost an on off stutter, like the engine would cut out, strangely this was only when accelerating in top gear! This seemed to be getting progressively worse and I was concerned that something else was complicating the issue. Power seemed to be down too! The only other difference since the rebuild is that I had new sports headers fitted when the engine went back together!

Assuming all is well and I don't get any more CELs, I am now in a dilemma whether a remap would sort out the running issues with the dual cone intake fitted or if there is something fundamentally wrong with set up!

I had disconnected the battery before putting the standard airbox back on to reset the ECU, it seemed to adapt straight away, idling and running perfectly!

May have to find a different solution if I want to put the turbo wing back on!!
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Alfaian
Montreal


Joined: 12 Mar 2014
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Location: S.wales


PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great news rob Thumb thought it would be the dual cone sh!te filters Grin


Leave them off or start a fire with them is my advice. Oh and don't bother mapping it either.

It's sorted so just enjoy it now you've got a bomb proof engine Smile

At 355 bhp standard and what you might get won't be noticeable unless you go for the whole intake (x51) pack. That's a fortune for 26 bhp nooo

Curiously, why can't you fit the turbo wing as she is ?
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jonno_
Monza


Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 166
Location: Oxfordshire

2005 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfaian wrote:


Curiously, why can't you fit the turbo wing as she is ?


Dual air intake snorkels on the deck lid, so cold feeds, pipes and filters are problematic.
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Alfaian
Montreal


Joined: 12 Mar 2014
Posts: 618
Location: S.wales


PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonno_ wrote:
Alfaian wrote:


Curiously, why can't you fit the turbo wing as she is ?


Dual air intake snorkels on the deck lid, so cold feeds, pipes and filters are problematic.


I see and thanks.

Personally, I like the rear standard spoiler that lifts up and down. Something old school Porsche about it Cool

Could always sell it and put a fixed aero kit wing on it. Although rob has spent a fortune getting the engine sorted Sad
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DucatiRob
Suzuka


Joined: 22 Jul 2015
Posts: 1145
Location: Milton Keynes

2006 Porsche 997 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfaian wrote:
jonno_ wrote:
Alfaian wrote:


Curiously, why can't you fit the turbo wing as she is ?


Dual air intake snorkels on the deck lid, so cold feeds, pipes and filters are problematic.


I see and thanks.

Personally, I like the rear standard spoiler that lifts up and down. Something old school Porsche about it Cool

Could always sell it and put a fixed aero kit wing on it. Although rob has spent a fortune getting the engine sorted Sad


Also the hydraulic rams and the fan would hit the airbox! The only reason for remapping would be to sort out the running issues, if it came with a few more Bhp then that would be great!

I do like the standard decklid myself, but I like wings too Very Happy originally I was going for the turbo wing with a GT3 front, might have to re-think! Possibly sell the turbo wing and go aerokit Dont know

I see there is a cracked turbo wing on eBay at the moment for £3k Surprised
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