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911tom
Watkins Glen


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:19 am    Post subject: Debris in oil filter Reply with quote

Was up early so decided to treat my car to an oil change as the last one was around 6k miles ago. I did something I used to do on the carrera but have never done on the turbo. I dissected the old filter. On doing so I was shocked to see some debris. Look like a mix of plastic, copper and maybe aluminium. Has got me worried! My plan is to do 1k miles and the replace the filter and see if anything has been collected. From there I don't know. Any advice would as ever be greatly appreciated.




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MNC911
Österreich


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd give Baz a quick call at Hartech in Manchester. Possibly if you can somehow zoom in closer on what look like broken fishing hooks and PM (Private Message) him for his thoughts.

Obviously like a Doctor diagnosing by looking at photos can't always be 100% guarantee. However he's been in the game long enough to know what they are more likely from.

Fingers crossed for you bud Thumb
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cheshire911
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point to speak to Baz or Grant or Tobias at Hartech.

Probably nothing. The filter is there to catch debris created by normal wear and tear. But they will likely know what 'normal' looks like.
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ragpicker
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm. $hit in the filter is never a good thing dude...

I would speak to your trusted indy before you go driving it for another 1k miles personally. If something is failing and breaking up into bits then it can only get worse. If it fails in the next 1k miles it could result in a massive rebuild cost.

Hopefully its just normal wear and tear, but it could also be anything and everything including your oil pump failing. Anything in the sump?

You want to prevent a terminal failure, so get an expert opinion before you take it out for a spin!

The cynic in me would say this is your car feigning injury before the showdown in October.... Much like Tyson Fury and Vladimir! Grin

Joking aside, fingers crossed for you dude. Let us know how you get on!
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911tom
Watkins Glen


Joined: 22 May 2012
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Location: Buckinghamshire


PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your input. I'll get in touch with Hartech. Has anyone used autofarm in the past? Far more local to me being only 30 minutes up the road. I understand they could be a good 2nd choice.
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kas750
Shanghai


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autofarm are pretty much the original "indy". Thumb
 
  
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Chris_in_the_UK
Estoril


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being (brutally) honest that looks more than wear and tear to me. Too much and too large particles/debris.

Best of luck.
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911tom
Watkins Glen


Joined: 22 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'll bag up the old filter and run it over to autofarm on Monday for an opinion. Not sure what can be diagnosed without getting the engine apart.
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MNC911
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those broken hook parts I've just zoomed in on could be the corners cams or the edges of your IMS. As said don't drive it as you can still save the engine. You don't know what remains in the engine & there is no reference to how big the debris is.

Act on the side of caution, keep the evidence and seek professional guidance. Get on the phone and ring a couple of experienced engine builders.

Might be wise to have a complete engine flush for peace of mind and a scope inserted whilst drained to inspect the internals. That's an initial avenue before taking the engine apart.

It could be normal aging wear and tear but without any reference to how big the parts are it's advice on caution.

Let us know what they say, all the best buddy Thumb
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cheshire911
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes sense to take the filter to a local specialist and let them examine the debris in the filter.

The Turbo doesn't have an IMS bearing, so you can rule that out.
One of the areas that is known to let go is timing chains and tensioner.

Otherwise any areas of friction such as cams, piston rings, crankshaft main hearings and big ends. But you've not picked up any rumble or knock or tapping from small ends.

Needs a specialist opinion and take it from there.
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MNC911
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:
Makes sense to take the filter to a local specialist and let them examine the debris in the filter.

The Turbo doesn't have an IMS bearing, so you can rule that out.
One of the areas that is known to let go is timing chains and tensioner.

Otherwise any areas of friction such as cams, piston rings, crankshaft main hearings and big ends. But you've not picked up any rumble or knock or tapping from small ends.

Needs a specialist opinion and take it from there.


Agree Thumb
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ragpicker
Reims


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:

The Turbo doesn't have an IMS bearing, so you can rule that out.


Sorry Chesh, but that is incorrect. It does have an IMSB but it isn't the same ball bearing as on the M96/7 engines. Plus it is a driven intermediate shaft too with associated timing gear which can also disintegrate.

Tis rare to fail though, granted.
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cheshire911
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand corrected then! I was told by a leading Indy during my research trying to decide on a C4S or a Turbo when I said all this IMS stuff worries me.

At least the second bit is correct - I was told to rule out my concerns on a Turbo cos they'd never had any issues of the sort seen on the NA cars.

The Turbo has different set of challenges in its upkeep of course.
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ragpicker
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:
I stand corrected then! I was told by a leading Indy during my research trying to decide on a C4S or a Turbo when I said all this IMS stuff worries me.

At least the second bit is correct - I was told to rule out my concerns on a Turbo cos they'd never had any issues of the sort seen on the NA cars.

The Turbo has different set of challenges in its upkeep of course.


Oh absolutely! Thumb
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Chris_in_the_UK
Estoril


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
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Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire911 wrote:
I stand corrected then! I was told by a leading Indy during my research trying to decide on a C4S or a Turbo when I said all this IMS stuff worries me.


Breaking News..... "leading Indy offers tales of 'smoke and mirrors'.."

It annoys me when so called 'respected' outfits resort to untruths or distorted explanations/ advice.
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ragpicker
Reims


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris_in_the_UK wrote:
cheshire911 wrote:
I stand corrected then! I was told by a leading Indy during my research trying to decide on a C4S or a Turbo when I said all this IMS stuff worries me.


Breaking News..... "leading Indy offers tales of 'smoke and mirrors'.."



Zingari, is that you? Grin
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cheshire911
Estoril


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This post on Rennlist may clarify: See Brad Roberts' post with diagram of the Metzger and the NA engine which clearly shows there is no IMS bearing on a 996 Turbo (just 'clam shells' as he describes) - see link to the thread but Brad Roberts quotes:

Just so everyone is clear, these two pic's show the intermediate shaft for the TT/GT3 (and all air cooled 6cyl Porsche's for the last 60 years) and the intermediate shaft for the M/96 engines (which has ZERO in common with the air cooled or late 993 engine based water cooled engines) The TT/GT3 shaft VERY VERY rarely fails. It is not in a sealed roller bearing like the M/96 based engines. It literally sits in what amounts to 4 bearing clam shells. What you do not see in this pic is the shaft running the oil pump

http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/24756-intermediate-shaft-failure/

So the indy who told me the 996 Turbo doesn't have an IMS bearing was correct. It doesnt have a roller bearing but the shaft is supported by big-end style shells.

Another thread on Rennlist states:

"IMS is gear driven in the Turbo engine vs. chain driven in the NA 996 engine and furthermore doesn't have the ball bearing the NA 996 engine has. This doesn't make the IMS in the Turbo engine indestructible but given the number of these cars around and the age and number of miles they're racking up and for some the engine hp mods they receive the usage they're subjected to it doesn't appear the IMS is a weak link in the Turbo engine".

So no 'smoke and mirrors' from that indy.
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Shurv
Kyalami


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom, is it also worth removing the sump, and having a look to see if there's anything in there too?
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infrasilver
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Fast & Furious


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shurv wrote:
Tom, is it also worth removing the sump, and having a look to see if there's anything in there too?


Agreed, have a look in the sump to see what hasn't been picked up by the oil pick up.

If the bits are all non ferrous there is little chance of it being something of the main workings of the engine, you need to put a magnet on the bits to find out.

You will always get minor bits breaking off over time like chain guides and also gasket sealant will beak loose. If there is copper coloured metal this could be something like a crank bearing worn through.

Chains do break on the turbo but again it would be ferrous metal in the filter.
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911tom
Watkins Glen


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice. I think on this occasion I will leave it to the pros. I am a keen diyer as many on here know but this is beyond my comfort zone. As you say Marcus I could move the sump and inspect. My thinking is this will offer one of two outcomes. 1. there is not much to be seen. Great but what is the deal with the filter. 2. Debris in the sump. Okay now what....

One thing that has come to light is the filter is actually older than I thought. I normally do an oil and filter change every 6 months ish.... Last were November 14, Feb 15 and January 16. Now the last one I did in January I changed the oil and then could not find my filter spanner. As I had planned to drive it very little I did not bother changing it. This means the last new filter went in Feb 15 so is much older it should be. Only done around 8 - 10k miles though. In January I change a few oil related parts including one turbo oil tank, two oil lines and more recently the oil filler tube. Of course this was all done with car but it is possible this could be factor. Think I am clutching at straws though as there appears to be at least 3 different types of material found in the filter. Non of which appears to be magnets but look metallic. Some has a copper type colour, some looks more like aluminium. The biggest chunk which are a maximum of 2-3mm appear to be plastic but fairly soft.

Every cloud and all that. Attest I can coolant pipes welded and a few other preventative jobs done Very Happy
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