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adamw
Estoril


Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 3858
Location: West Sussex

2002 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject: Full (?) Hartech treatment Reply with quote

Hi all
When considering a 996/997 m96/m97 car for me and piece of mind I’d be keen to find one with a “full” Hartech rebuild.
I know this will divide opinions but that’s how I feel.

For me and what I’ve read the “full” treatment would consist of :
- closed deck
- cylinder bore treatment on all 6 cylinders
- new IMS (later revision)
- lower temp stat
There maybe other points but think they’re the main ones I know of.

If I’m looking at a car that’s had:
- overhaul cylinder heads
- fit one new cylinder
- re-round remaining cylinders and fit restraining rings
- new IMS (later revision)

Is it fair to say that it’s not had the “full” works and hasn’t necessarily been “future proofed”

Motor in question in 3.6 m96 BTW..

Thanks in advance Thumb
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EX : 02' 996 Turbo Coupe ( May 17 - Sept 19 )
EX : 95' 993 C4 Coupe ( Dec 10 - Oct 16 )
EX : 00' 996 C2 Cab ( Jul 09 - Oct 10 )
EX : 03' 986 Boxster S ( May 06 - Dec 08 )
 
  
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CarraraWhite
Barcelona


Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 1285
Location: England

2011 Porsche 991 Carrera

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand that there are different levels of spend a car might have gone through, especially from the trade who might only want the basis's done, having said that I assume but others please correct me, a 'full emperor's' hartech engine rebuild is only 99.9% full proof but should easily see another 100k+ miles of usage without any major issue, caveat that 0.1% factor?
I dont know for sure but welcome this conversation.
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Alex
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 16660
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Full 6 pack is 6 new pistons and liners. Why don't you give them a bell and they'll explain all their variants.
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2000 Manual 996 C4 Arctic Silver Convertible


 
  
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adamw
Estoril


Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 3858
Location: West Sussex

2002 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex wrote:
Full 6 pack is 6 new pistons and liners. Why don't you give them a bell and they'll explain all their variants.


Thanks Alex
This was my understanding and looks as if the car in question hasn’t had this.
Shame, but think I’ll move on to next ..

Thumb
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EX : 02' 996 Turbo Coupe ( May 17 - Sept 19 )
EX : 95' 993 C4 Coupe ( Dec 10 - Oct 16 )
EX : 00' 996 C2 Cab ( Jul 09 - Oct 10 )
EX : 03' 986 Boxster S ( May 06 - Dec 08 )
 
  
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TurboRob
Trainee


Joined: 18 Feb 2019
Posts: 82



PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine was rebuilt 100k miles ago by Hartech, isn't the "full six pack" and runs very well
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skinny_monkey
Nürburgring


Joined: 16 Sep 2014
Posts: 435



PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Full (?) Hartech treatment Reply with quote

adamw wrote:
Hi all
When considering a 996/997 m96/m97 car for me and piece of mind I’d be keen to find one with a “full” Hartech rebuild.
I know this will divide opinions but that’s how I feel.

For me and what I’ve read the “full” treatment would consist of :
- closed deck
- cylinder bore treatment on all 6 cylinders
- new IMS (later revision)
- lower temp stat
There maybe other points but think they’re the main ones I know of.

If I’m looking at a car that’s had:
- overhaul cylinder heads
- fit one new cylinder
- re-round remaining cylinders and fit restraining rings
- new IMS (later revision)

Is it fair to say that it’s not had the “full” works and hasn’t necessarily been “future proofed”

Motor in question in 3.6 m96 BTW..

Thanks in advance Thumb


It's not the full works but at the same time, why replace stuff that's absolutely fine? Restraining rings will prevent bores going oval so it's not necessary to replace those. IMS done. In terms of reliability I'd say the two are probably very close. LTT is not a big deal. I'd want to see that the bearings, and the chains and guides were done.
 
  
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bazhart
Approved Trader


Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 958
Location: Bolton Lancashire


PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are 2 main problems associated with the extent of a rebuild for providers.

(1) If a customer books in because he has say 1 cylinder scored, we could insist he (and every other engine) has absolutely everything possible to improve it - but then a lot of it may be unnecessary (may not be worn or have later fitments etc). If we did insist then many prospective owners that don't need everything might try and find less expensive rebuilders (and we get plenty of those back afterwards to be done properly - so that wouldn't be in their interests). Furthermore he may not simply be able to afford everything and that raises issues. It is his car after-all and he has the right to instruct whatever level of rebuild he wants.

We will and do draw the line at anything that will not be sufficiently reliable to last a reasonable length of time and we spend a lot of time talking to our customers and discussing the merits and costs of various stages of rebuilds and their finances etc (which many have reported on here with satisfaction), and eventually - however the engine spec is finalised they all have a great reputation for the quality of the work provided.

Some customers can afford to eliminate minor weaknesses (where the failure rate is very small and incidents unlikely) but prefer to eliminate that from their rebuild while they are incurring a lot of cost that would have to be repeated if that part still failed in the future (however unlikely).

Our system is hard work and very time consuming but works extremely well - although it does result in each and every rebuild probably being slightly different to another and therefore prospective new owners are right to want to know the extent of the previous owners rebuild.

But this leads us to the second problem - we are not allowed to disclose the details of work we did for "OUR CUSTOMER" to a third party without their authority.

All our work is accompanied with a comprehensive invoice and we have internal records of everything that we found and did from stripping, machining and rebuilding - but we cannot reveal that (nor frankly have the time or incentive to research it and discuss it with several people all interested in the same car for sale when none of them may buy it anyway).

All I can suggest is that if an owner does not reveal the contents and will not give permission for us to discuss it then it is probably not as good a rebuild as we could have provided - although is probably still a good rebuild and better than not having one or one done by some others.

With the owners permission we can sometimes find time to provide a general and non specific comment on the level of the rebuild, but not always, as we are so busy trying to help people still in the middle of their own rebuild with us we cannot simply drop that to discuss at length an old rebuild we have already completed long ago for a car and probably new owner we may never hear from again - sorry.

Our re-manufacturing system is a flow system involving different specialists, sections and expensive equipment and while it is all working very well it cannot be slightly stretched to increase response to continually higher demand. We would have to double it to increase turnover and that would involve 6 figure sums, about 10 new staff, a new factory and the market is not yet that strong and with newer engines proving more reliable cannot be justified for just this 10 year model range.

So we are a bit stuck with high demand and a system that works well but takes hours of discussion with each customer and simply does not leave enough time to help everyone interested in an older rebuild (especially when we have already provided all the information to the original customer anyway) - which I hope you will understand and sympathise with.

It is a difficult situation and solutions like supporting original Lokasil bores at the top (so they last longer without cracking or distorting more) are not as good as all new cylinders but do usually extend the life of the engine for a long time and help owners unable to afford the best rebuild get a lot more life out of their engine while new shells etc help prolong the crankshaft life and top end rebuilds and new rings will keep the engine performance good.

Some "next owners" are talked out of buying a car that has had an engine rebuild on the grounds that it must have been a "Friday car" but this is usually nonsense. The vast majority of owners do not keep their cars more then 3 years overall and often fancy a change even though they had a top rebuild that is still running perfectly and a car bought in this situation is usually a bargain (since this model range will not have engines that last for ever anyway) even though it will cost a little more than others that are original, with FSH but gradually wearing out.

All M96 engines will have bores going oval and will probably eventually crack and all M96/7 later engines with plastic coated pistons will wear the coating away and probably eventually score a bore.

Many will still last a very long time and there are ways (well reported) to extend their life but none will eliminate the need for attention one day in the future.

Fortunately our full rebuilds with 6 Nikasil alloy liners are the best available and combined with many other mods and exceptional workmanship provide a good way out of a problem while prices for such fantastic cars are lower than they would have been if the engines were more reliable - so with open eyes the situation is not as bad as many doom mongers make out.

Finally we were brought an engine this week with a complaint that our Nikasil alloy liners had lost some plating. Although looking similar we were able to identify and demonstrate that these were not made or fitted by us and had a few technical omissions that explained the failure - so without proof of source don't assume all Nikasil alloy liners fix the problem permanently. All our work is also reliably guaranteed.


Baz
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ballcock
Sepang


Joined: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 2969
Location: Dublin

1996 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Adam,
Just my opinion but I totally agree with your approach to buying, ie waiting for a comprehensive Hartech rebuild to come along.
One thing you don’t mention, but something I would have on the list would be that the crank bearings were also sorted ...
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'96 Iris C2 vario manual coupe, Koni FZD's/M033's RSR's and HID's.
‘98 Ocean blue 996 C2 Tip pressed into daily service.

Ex '83 W460 LWB G Wagen updated with OM602 engine and 6 speed 'box
Ex. '99 996 C2 manual coupe.
 
  
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