New member considering buying a 997

plavix · 9 Apr 2014

wizard993 said:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/57847/porsche_911.html

Evo don't think so :wink:

Like I would disagree. 8)

Frenchmeister · 9 Apr 2014

Here here Stokie !
Lovely things ! my motto is "Look after them and they will look after you" get a low temp thermostat fitted DIY £45 from Hartech or approx £250 fitted.
Warm it up roperly before hitting the loud pedal and run it on 5/40 W.

Stokie, where's the full stop at the end of the last paragraph :hand:

Healeyguy · 10 Apr 2014

If Rowan is reading this, I sent you a PM. I live very close to you.

I'm going to give the tiptronic a test. Overall, it might suit me better because

1. I have got used to this type of driving in the Jag and I quite like it.
2. I'm a bit of an old fogey and I'm not looking to wring the neck out of the Porsche on the road and I won't be using it on the track.
3. I get more than enough exercise changing gears in a 1958 Austin Healey!,

I have decided I prefer a 2 wheel drive to a four wheel drive so I'm down to a Carrera vs Carrera S. I think this might come down to the best car value for money that comes up. If I see a great Carrera that ticks all the boxes I might just take that over an S.

Colour wise Porsche seems like everyone else. You can have it any colour as long as its Black, Silver of Grey. I like some of the 'coloured' cars but they seem pretty thin on the ground so it could take a long time to find a perfect car if I am chasing a specific colour like red.

Someone mentioned that the bearing type was upgraded around 2006. What are the details and exact date of this?

In getting acquainted with a Porsche yesterday a few things struck me. Adults can't sit in the back unless they are about 4 foot 6. Its going to be a pain getting a set of golf clubs in and out and I only have a carry bag. I also thought the door handles inside and out felt a bit flimsy, and the gear stick had a bit of a plasticky feel.

Anyway, the quest continues.

Maxie · 10 Apr 2014

Healeyguy said:
I have decided I prefer a 2 wheel drive to a four wheel drive so I'm down to a Carrera vs Carrera S. I think this might come down to the best car value for money that comes up. If I see a great Carrera that ticks all the boxes I might just take that over an S.

Sensible.

Healeyguy said:
Colour wise Porsche seems like everyone else. You can have it any colour as long as its Black, Silver of Grey. I like some of the 'coloured' cars but they seem pretty thin on the ground so it could take a long time to find a perfect car if I am chasing a specific colour like red.

Take your time - there are plenty around and one that you fancy is likely to crop up sooner or later.

Healeyguy said:
Someone mentioned that the bearing type was upgraded around 2006. What are the details and exact date of this?

Yes, towards the end of 2005, the latest design of IMS bearing was used for the rest of the Gen I cars.

Healeyguy said:
In getting acquainted with a Porsche yesterday a few things struck me. Adults can't sit in the back unless they are about 4 foot 6.

True - they are really designed for kids and the like. Good job you're not buying a Cab because it's even tighter in the back than the Coupe.

Healeyguy said:
Its going to be a pain getting a set of golf clubs in and out and I only have a carry bag.

The other option is to consider a Targa.... This is a hatchback 997 with a lifting rear screen. You can easily put a set of golf clubs in the back there. However, 997 Targas are all 4WD and wide-bodied (996 Targas are RWD and narrow-bodied).

Healeyguy said:
I also thought the door handles inside and out felt a bit flimsy, and the gear stick had a bit of a plasticky feel.

Yes unfortunately again, the door handles are made of plastic that looks like aluminium, however the gear lever should be a mix of metal and leather.

~ Maxie

carruthers · 10 Apr 2014

2hot2trot said:
Hello,

I just want to add that this curious member hired a 997.2 Carrera 2S PDK Cabriolet which is sitting outside, missing me, at the moment (fuller comparison to follow here within the next few days, if anyone's interested) and I'm firstly shocked at how close the performance is between my usual Carrera 4(no S) 997.1 3.6 manual and this 997.2 2S PDK. In normal driving mode, especially under 4000rpm, the C2S bizarrely even seems a lot less snappy than my C4. What's more, again in 'normal mode', when I floor the pedal (yes indeed, as that 70 sign on a clear road just invited), there's a brief delay of nearly a second before the car registers what's happened, and then applies the required full on acceleration. So I rechecked this, and same effect. Hmmm. On the plus side, the 997.2 is showing an extremely impressive 19.5mpg despite my attempts in the past twenty four hours to 'get it going'. This against my C4 and its usual 13.4 is extremely impressive. Quite amazing. So far... But I couldn't shake the feeling that in the lower rev's my C4 is more satisfyingly responsive than the PDK and it's only when approaching close to 4,000 rpm that the PDK C2S really comes into its own. OTOH I fully concede, having used a Panamera GTS last year, that this all changes when 'Sport' or 'sport plus' is engaged. Albeit, for some strange reason - both buttons are missing on this hire car's board (again, pix to follow, if anyone's interested, w/n next few days).

Do I like it? It's a Porsche, it's a 911, well of course I do! All other things being equal, there is no such thing as a 911 which doesn't satisfy anyone who likes driving. Period. But, having said that, I assumed at first that the driving experience would be much, eh... 'better' than that of my most satisfying C4, as in: 'thousands of pounds better'. But the reality is, & maybe I'm biased, but it just isn't anywhere near *that much* better! Both cars most unquestionably and ultimately provide a great driving experience, as many have said here before, just in different ways. BTW, I'm still not sure if I prefer the driving experience of power being equally delivered to all wheels, or from right behind my back. More on that later perhaps. Regardless, there's an undoubted satisfaction to be found from either drive sys, so which is up to your preference too. Please bear in mind that all the '4' versions are more thirsty than any of the '2' versions.

Anyway, before I say too much I have to advise you, once you've committed to PDK or manual, definitely to try driving, out on the roads, (or better still, a track) both the 3.6 and the 3.8 cars. Ask yourself if you really need the little extra mid range+ power that the 3.8 IMO seems to give, at least in 'normal' mode (i.e., if you're choosing PDK) which in real world driving I've found translates to very little extra...? I often see people in the 3.8 "S" version driving around in a (how best shall I put this...) very modest fashion indeed. Which is great in many respects, but then again I can't help thinking whenever I come across such persons that they spent more on basically a larger engine, only to then... drive exactly the same as they would in the default engine. Hmmm. Still, The 3.6 is cheaper to buy, and it's true that it won't resell as high as the 3.8, but we're still not talking about a bargain basement difference in pricing: the marketplace still respects that 911 badge, whatever the model. Swings and roundabouts - you buy the 3.6 cheaper, and you sell it cheaper: Absolutely fair enough. And I would strongly argue, as a happy C4 owner, that a generously spec'd non S car represents far better value to any potential buyer than a meanly specified 'S' car. (more on that in my fuller review to follow). Lastly, whatever model you choose be sure to get the essentials of rear park assist, cruise control (for long journeys and resale value) and Porsche Sports Exhaust. Once you settle on a car, ask to get it 111 point checked at your expense, which will be more than worth it for your motoring peace of mind.

So here's how the 3.6 makes sense to me in a sentence: you bought it cheaper, you sell it cheaper but it doesn't give a cheaper driving experience.

Apologies if I've been overcome with verbosity, but HTH nonetheless.

Something seriously wrong with the C2S, I've had both and there is no comparison, 70hp diff for a start.

Healeyguy · 10 Apr 2014

Don't forget though that the max power numbers quoted only exist at one particular rev number high up in the range, which you only really reach on a track.

What is more important is torque and where it occurs.
You need to compare the torque and power curves for both cars. My Healey has a massively flat and high torque curve from 1800rpm right through to 5700rpm. Mid range torque is the most useful.

plavix · 10 Apr 2014

carruthers said:
Something seriously wrong with the C2S, I've had both and there is no comparison, 70hp diff for a start.

60bhp! C4 997.1 is 325bhp. C2S 997.2 is 385bhp. FWIW the C2S/C4S 997.1 is 355bhp.

C2S 997.2 is 1500kg plus PDK is 35kg. C4 997.1 is 1450kg.

So a 15% increase in power with a 6% weight increase. The C2S 997.2 is 8% quicker to 62mph (100kph), as a lighter manual car, not a heavier PDK car. It's hardly noticeable, unless PDK is flattering the gear changes.

The torque curve on the M96/M97 is much prettier than the DFI, delivering maximum torque 150rpm earlier.

I'm with Colin Chapman, less weight, not Jeremy "I'm a buffoon" Clarkson, more POWER!

2hot2trot · 10 Apr 2014

Good call, plavix

Edit, also, I don't know what's happening to me, but

I'm starting to wonder whether I might just eventually end up liking PDK after all? My mindset is strangely starting to move, of its own accord, towards the PDK end of things... A few more days to go and I might just eat my words - i.e., on firstly preferring manual over it.

Hmmm

Healeyguy · 11 Apr 2014

As suggested I have been trawling the net and talking to various people in my quest for more info. However I am finding a lot of disturbing stories and negative feelings which is not making me feel any better.

Let me play devil's advocate for a minute and fire some stuff at you.

1. Porsche were losing money and planned the Boxster/996 combo to rescue the company.

2. With the aid of Toyota? these cars were built with cost cutting as a number 1 priority. The result was Porsche's first water cooled cars with suspect engines and cheap interiors.

3. The IMS bearing is a flawed design and the cylinder liners are not made out of quality material.

4. Porsche's marketing department has managed to keep a lid on this brand destroying information and the car is still sold to aspirational people as the 'World's only daily driver supercar'

5. Porschophiles, being the cult followers that they are, have not attacked the company and have accepted the faults as 'part of Porsche ownership'. It must have been the owners fault, not properly maintained etc.etc.

6 Whether the percentage of exploding engines is 'only' 5% or not the fact is it is totally unacceptable for a 21st century 'supercar' and would be unacceptable to even Daiwoo.

I'm sure you've heard all that before but I guess there is a lot of truth in it too.

I'm still hanging in though. I will probably buy from a Porsche specialist who 'only take in the best cars' etc. However it seems the fact is they can never be absolutely certain re the bearing issue.

I also don't really want to pay for an expensive extended warranty to guarantee something that shouldn't be happening but I guess thats what we have to deal with.

What percentage of people on here maintain full warranty coverage?

I think I at least want a car that has the uprated bearing. Anyone know of the exact date or serial number from which these started?

Interesting to reflect on how much these issues have impacted the prices. Would they be more expensive without these faults? Probably I guess.

I'm staying positive.

Maxie · 11 Apr 2014

Healeyguy said:
1. Porsche were losing money and planned the Boxster/996 combo to rescue the company.

in the mid 90's it was conceivable that Porsche was going to go bankrupt until the new water cooled cars came out. This was largely the work of previous Porsche CEO Wendelin Wiedeking who was brought in to save the company from going bust which he achieved via the 986/996 program.

Healeyguy said:
2. With the aid of Toyota? these cars were built with cost cutting as a number 1 priority. The result was Porsche's first water cooled cars with suspect engines and cheap interiors.

WW introduced just-in-time methodologies after learning from the Japanese and thus introducing an extremely efficient operation. At this time, Porsche were operating on a shoe-string budget (nothing like what they have access to today) and therefore parts of the new water-cooled cars were comprmised. Interiors are one (996 & 986 cars) and the much maligned engine design on the early water-cooled cars also.

Healeyguy said:
3. The IMS bearing is a flawed design and the cylinder liners are not made out of quality material.

This was especially true of the 996.1 & 986.1. Things got better with the 996.2. The IMS design was continually improved throughout the life of the water cooled cars resulting in the latest and last make-over in late 2005. This last design carried the 997.1 right through to the end of its production in the 3rd quarter of 2008.

Healeyguy said:
4. Porsche's marketing department has managed to keep a lid on this brand destroying information and the car is still sold to aspirational people as the 'World's only daily driver supercar'

True. I guess much like any other car manufacturer.

Healeyguy said:
5. Porschophiles, being the cult followers that they are, have not attacked the company and have accepted the faults as 'part of Porsche ownership'. It must have been the owners fault, not properly maintained etc.etc.

I think this is what Porsche would say. There have been instances of owners not looking after cars properly for eg. not warming up thoroughly before using them at max potantial. People have attacked Porsche for certain faults and I believe in the USA they seem to be making some headway but not here in Europe.

Healeyguy said:
6. Whether the percentage of exploding engines is 'only' 5% or not the fact is it is totally unacceptable for a 21st century 'supercar' and would be unacceptable to even Daiwoo.

These points have been well and truly discussed many a time on 911uk. Many of us have found work-arounds to alleviate any problems as much as we can. After all, if you look after the car well enough, it will look after you.

Healeyguy said:
I'm sure you've heard all that before but I guess there is a lot of truth in it too.

Yes we've heard all before......

Healeyguy said:
I think I at least want a car that has the uprated bearing. Anyone know of the exact date or serial number from which these started?

Best to look at late 55 reg cars and onwards in that case unless you know the bearing has been uprated.

Healeyguy said:
Interesting to reflect on how much these issues have impacted the prices. Would they be more expensive without these faults? Probably I guess.

Quite possibly I guess. The bottom fell out of the 996 market in 2008/9 just as the financial turmoil was kicking off. 997s have also been affected but not as much as residuals still seem to be holding on. There is a gulf in price between the 997.1 and 997.2. Note that 997.2 cars don't have the bearing problem because it doesn't have an IMS.

Healeyguy said:
I'm staying positive.

:thumb:

~ Maxie

wizard993 · 11 Apr 2014

In case you have not noticed, good 996's are creeping up in value esp the 996 c4s and turbo's

Still some dogs around but the good ones are a seriously good buy right now.

Blobsta · 11 Apr 2014

http://www.911uk.com/ads_item.php?id=5177

Here's a good one and with an upgraded IMS

It's mine, I love it but want to move on to the next one now.

If they continue to creep up I might hold on to it as an investment, HA! :dont know:

megdog · 12 Apr 2014

I've had a 997.1 Carrera 3.6 for two years. Service is every two years as you point out, but I change my oil every other year in between. I bought a Warranty Direct policy in case of major repair bills.
I believe that anecdotally the narrower bore, less-stressed 3.6 engine suffers from far less incidences of bore scoring or IMS failure than the 3.8. Buy the Peter Morgan 997 buyers guide - a brilliant £15 investment to help you get to know what to look for.

Rawhide · 12 Apr 2014

If your looking for an 05 997.1 and want to see the engine build number to confirm if it's had the later bearing you can run a £6 HPI check and it will tell you. I don't believe its 100% accurate as you can only tell for sure when accessing the bearing but it's some Insurance if you believe the build numbers.

cheshire911 · 13 Apr 2014

Is my name Hiram Abif? Am I to be found hanging off Blackfriars Bridge with a tow noose around my neck, my tongue cut out and ritually disemboweled?

Perhaps its a Masonic conspiracy by the NA fans to silence any referrals to design flaws that seem to be appearing in the NA cars?

I was looking for my post from this week-end trying to offer some clarity to the poster of this thread, but lo and behold, I cannot find it. Perhaps I tried to enter King Solomon's temple and was promptly struck on the head?

Can anyone enlighten me on what could have happened to my post? I wanted to copy and paste it to email to someone else in the US.

New member considering buying a 997

plavix

Mugello

Frenchmeister

Barcelona

Healeyguy

New member

Maxie

Yas Marina

carruthers

Monza

Healeyguy

New member

plavix

Mugello

2hot2trot

Trainee

Healeyguy

New member

Maxie

Yas Marina

wizard993

Donnington

Blobsta

Monza

megdog

Silverstone

Rawhide

Silverstone

cheshire911

Portimao

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