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Massive mechanical failure. Not a good day...

Hope you get it sorted out.

Now I'm know expert but you've had ownership of the car for approx 3 months, the engine lets go and warranty wont cover all the work.

So what's to stop the dealer bailing out by blaming the malfucntion on the driver/mode of driving :dont know:

Is there any way you can establish the state of the engine at the point of sale or identify that the engine was defective due to a part malfunctioning? In which case would Porsche bear some responsibility or would this go down the same route as the 996 RMS/IMS issues?
 
Stuart said:
Who has supplied those numbers as they seem very very high?

Second opinion required me thinks...


:dont know:

This ^^^^

Did you ever speak to Hartech? Every post I've seen from them would seem to suggest a cost of more like £8000 for a fully refurbed motor, not £18000.

Also have a proper, close, informed look at what Hartech are doing. I'd be VERY much happier with a Hartech engine in a 997.1 than with a 'new' engine from Porsche (they're actually remanufactured). Porsche never sorted the issues the M97 engine occasionally suffers from, whereas all Hartech engines (as I understand it) can be supplied with the cylinder bores stabilised, the IMS bearing modified so it stands a real chance of lasting the whole life of the engine and the cooling system modified to lessen the danger of localised hot spots in the engine (that can cause the pistons to 'pick-up' on the bore walls and cause scoring/damage).

The fact your motor is currently full of swarf is irrelevant - a full strip down and rebuild at a proper engineers such as Hartech would include cleaning-out all the small drillings and oilways so there's no danger of anything being left inside.

Lastly, if you could get a better-than-new engine for 'sensible' money, you will have a much better chance of everything being paid-out and an amicable, rather than combative, solution being reached quickly. Car-on-road is, after all, the most important thing. We buy these cars to drive them, not to fight legal battles over them if possible. A Porsche that can't be driven is worse than useless.

Ian
 
Has there ever been any data compating the outputs of a Hartech rebuilt engine (without mods to improve power) vs new/replacement or even the original Porsche engine of similar mileage?

One of my concerns would that be whatever replacement engine I went for was optimised in terms of not just future reliability but also power too.

I suppose that the saving in cost achieved bygoing from OPC to Hartech would pay for some power-boosting upgrades, but I'm curious as to what the 'standard' engines from each would achieve.
 
c4srmsims said:
Has there ever been any data compating the outputs of a Hartech rebuilt engine (without mods to improve power) vs new/replacement or even the original Porsche engine of similar mileage?

One of my concerns would that be whatever replacement engine I went for was optimised in terms of not just future reliability but also power too.

I suppose that the saving in cost achieved bygoing from OPC to Hartech would pay for some power-boosting upgrades, but I'm curious as to what the 'standard' engines from each would achieve.

In theory there should be no difference. Both have the same displacement, both will be using stock heads and the same valve timing with the same ignition and fuelling maps. With new pistons and/or rings in perfectly round bores, both should have the same compression too. Bearings will be new and run at the same tolerance.

The difference will come as the engines start to age. One of the issues with the M96/7 engines is the bores going out of round due to the materials used and the 'open-deck' block design. The Hartech engine will retain round bores whilst the standard Porsche engine's bores will typically end-up slightly oval. This reduces effective compression pressure and will lower power/torque output with time.

Ian
 
Ian_UK1 said:
c4srmsims said:
Has there ever been any data compating the outputs of a Hartech rebuilt engine (without mods to improve power) vs new/replacement or even the original Porsche engine of similar mileage?

One of my concerns would that be whatever replacement engine I went for was optimised in terms of not just future reliability but also power too.

I suppose that the saving in cost achieved bygoing from OPC to Hartech would pay for some power-boosting upgrades, but I'm curious as to what the 'standard' engines from each would achieve.

In theory there should be no difference. Both have the same displacement, both will be using stock heads and the same valve timing with the same ignition and fuelling maps. With new pistons and/or rings in perfectly round bores, both should have the same compression too. Bearings will be new and run at the same tolerance.

The difference will come as the engines start to age. One of the issues with the M96/7 engines is the bores going out of round due to the materials used and the 'open-deck' block design. The Hartech engine will retain round bores whilst the standard Porsche engine's bores will typically end-up slightly oval. This reduces effective compression pressure and will lower power/torque output with time.

Ian

So that's the theory - any data to support this? Nothing on the Hartech website, and no claims there. I've had engines rebuilt before, and there was a big difference to 'factory'.
 
Update.

So the supplying dealer offered to fit a new (replacement) engine from Porsche (2 year warranty) at no cost to me (also comes with all new ancillaries apparently too), but he wanted to use his guys to do it and not Byfleet as a lot of the cost was coming from their labour costs.

After talking to a few "right honourable" mates, I was going to accept with a couple of caveats -

1) They stand by their work on the car for 12 months
2) They allow me to send in an independent inspector to investigate their work before I collected the car
3) They meet me half way on the cost of stripping the engine at Byfleet (which I expect to be circa £1,000)

I would've been ok with this as for around £500 I would've had a new engine with the work inspected and signed off as well as covered for a year, plus the engine itself is warrantied by Porsche for 2 years.

Not a bad result.

However, I heard from Byfleet last week. Seems the warranty company engineer who went in is going to reject the claim. Looking at the engine he feels the damage on the cylinders (scoring) is old. Therefore I was sold a car with an already damaged engine. So they're talking about not paying anything and I'm back at the dealer's door. :wall:

I think that I might still be ok as the warranty company and the dealer go back a long way and they sell lots of policies through them - so I doubt the warranty company will leave the dealer completely high and dry and lose a good customer.

I think if between them I can get them to honour the dealer's offer (i.e. new engine fitted, inspected and work guaranteed for 12 months, engine for 24) then I'll take it. :dont know:

I'll be back on the road with a new engine.

Another option is to tell the dealer I'm rejecting the car under the Sale of Goods Act and go through the courts to get all of my money back. However, I love the car, that could take months, it's not 100% certain the judge would rule in my favour (although I expect he / she would).

And yet another option is to talk to Santander (who finance part of the car) as they have an interest in their assest being on the road in working order. They would get quite heavy handed with the dealer.

I'm so undecided as to the best way to go. One day I just want the car back with a new engine, the next I think I never want to see it again. :?

And by the way - quick question - given that my engine probably had some damage (however minor / major) when I bought it - is it likely that it wasn't running at 100%? I'd love to get the car back even better (and faster!) than before! :puh:
 
Court should always be the last resort. Good luck. :thumb:
 
If you can , Reject it and buy another car with an opc warranty.
 
If you can get the dealer/warranty company to provide a new engine I reckon that's the best result you can realistically expect.

If the dealer/warranty company offer this I doubt there's is any chance the courts would find for you being able to reject the car - especially as 3 months had elapsed after you buying it. What mileage did you do in that 3 months?

Furthermore the cost of you providing the evidence to back up any claim of the engine already being damaged would be high, let alone the time it would take, and I doubt that you'd get that money back even if you won your case.

Good luck.
 
I think Ian Uk1 is spot on as Hartech do seem top of the tree from an engineering aspect. However, if it went to court then you have to remember the dealer has offered to make good the defect, and on this basis T8996C4 is quite correct. The dealer is going to meet his obligation which is going to make things difficult for you in court. If it was me I'd take the dealers offer. If your still unhappy pay for some professional advice.

Good luck and lets know.
OB
 
.

Sounds like the dealer has offered a pretty good deal to me.

By replacing the engine and ancillaries, they seem to be going further than just making good - which would have been to fix/rebuild your broken engine.

Hope you get it fixed and back on the road soon.
 
I always wonder when an engine destructs at say 3,000 rpm with all this metal flying around how an engineer can look into the bores and say yes but some of these scratches are old.....

If I was paying it would be Hartech all the way, no doubt. If the dealer is paying then whatever he offers, if it has a 2 year warranty.

When he has fitted the new engine, I would run it straight up to Hartech for some work, see this link, section 5 is the part that applies to you :

[/url]http://www.hartech.org/buyers.html LOJO
 
So...finally some good news!

The car is having a new engine fitted at no cost to me! The warranty company and the dealer have sorted it out between themselves.

The engine will be ordered from Porsche HQ in Germany and the work will be carried out by the supplying dealer's mechanics and then checked over by the guys at JZ Machtech for a clean bill of health and sign off that everything has been done properly.

I have spoken in some detail to both JZM and Hartech and they both said the same thing - having a new engine from Porsche with new ancillaries (which is what I'm getting) with a 24 months Porsche warranty is the absolute best outcome I could wish for. Regardless of how expert any rebuild it is, it doesn't compare to a brand new unit. I was worried I'd get a recon engine from Porsche - turns out it'll be a brand spanking new one!

As such, the engine Porsche will supply will be the 2011 version of the Gen 1 3.8 (355 BHP) unit which has numerous improvements on the original 2004 units and their well known weak points (IMS / main bearing seals etc). :thumbs:

Steve (Technical Director at JZM) has confirmed that fitting an engine is actually pretty simple and as long as they use new mounting bolts and fit a new clutch (if required) at the same time, there's very little to worry about. This has really put my mind at ease to be honest.

As such, I'm pretty pleased. The car should be back on the road in about 2 weeks. :thumb:

The tough part will be taking it easy as I run it in....which I assume I'll have to do... :dont know:
 
JFB I am more than delighted for you. Well done mate! You stuck with it and the outcome is great.

I am getting the full engine rebuild at Hartech, and the dealer is covering most of it. It seems we are both closer to Porschecarnirvana than before our failures: it almost makes all the hassle worth it...

:thumbs:
 

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