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adrian996
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Joined: 04 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could always PDF the whole of this thread and e-mail it to Porsche....?
 
  
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ameer
Monza


Joined: 12 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigfish makes a valid point... as do I. Its not rare.. clearly...! Furthermore the editor of a 911 mag would play it down.. its his job to ensure high numbers..!

also i have seen a few 997 advertised with low mileage with engines replaced.

This is a forum, as with most forums, is a place to learn/share stuff about something you are interested in... best to be open and frank!? No one is slating 911's as we all here seem to love cars and the 911!

Post moderated by Wattie
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ameer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adrian996 wrote:
You could always PDF the whole of this thread and e-mail it to Porsche....?


now theres a plan! and get them to give me a discount... Wink
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Stuart
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2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ameer wrote:
This is a forum, as with most forums, is a place to learn/share stuff about something you are interested in... best to be open and frank!? No one is slating 911's as we all here seem to love cars and the 911!


Correct, and how do most people come upon forums? When they are researching potential purchases or when they have a problem... Question
Look at Pistonheads, 6speed and PCGB forums, all problem related. There are thousands of 997 and 996 owners who don't use forums until that moment when they have a problem and need advice. Using them as a gauge for % of car problems is highly misleading. No one wants engine trouble, hell my CEL flashed on briefly and I almost had a heart attack. It's very rare that I go online and actually post how much I love my 911 but as soon as I have a problem I'll be straight online asking for help...
 
  
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ameer
Monza


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuart... agreed and i see your point Wink
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adrian996
Hockenheim


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stuart wrote:
ameer wrote:
This is a forum, as with most forums, is a place to learn/share stuff about something you are interested in... best to be open and frank!? No one is slating 911's as we all here seem to love cars and the 911!


Correct, and how do most people come upon forums? When they are researching potential purchases or when they have a problem... Question
Look at Pistonheads, 6speed and PCGB forums, all problem related. There are thousands of 997 and 996 owners who don't use forums until that moment when they have a problem and need advice. Using them as a gauge for % of car problems is highly misleading. No one wants engine trouble, hell my CEL flashed on briefly and I almost had a heart attack. It's very rare that I go online and actually post how much I love my 911 but as soon as I have a problem I'll be straight online asking for help...


This is something I've wondered for s while: it would be interesting to know what percentage of 997 (or any 911 really) owners use forums like this one? I'd bet it's less than 20%...? It just makes you wonder how the rest are getting on with theirs..?

Forums do seem to be largely used to get information and solve problems - but it does worry you when you hear such catastrophic stories concerning such expensive cars. My Indi recently told me a woeful tale about a guy in his twenties who had saved up for ages to buy a 2.7 Boxter. He'd bought it with 53K miles on it and was never happier - until a pin that goes through the main shaft (?) let go and blitzed his engine at 60K.

Now I know that there will be some who'll not be that surprised at this from a 2.7 Boxter with 60K miles but this in itself proves what we've come to accept from this manufacturer(?).

This poor guy now has a four wheeled white elephant on his drive which (at best) he'd get about £8k for in its current state.

Let's not beat around the bush here: Porsche launched the 3.4 996 well over ten years ago and have still not sorted the RMS issue!!! This is unforgivable and yet we've all just kept on buying them - myself included.
 
  
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ameer
Monza


Joined: 12 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrian, thanks for making that point. I suppose as I am not a Porsche owner I can look at things and evaluate things in an unbiased way.

Maxie, I do not need to get all shirty and badger others and ridicule them simply because they can not keep up in their cars… I know that my current 2 cars will do 50,000 miles without rebuilds, thanks. You can go break all the engines and speed limits you want. My point was to find out how good the 997 are in terms of reliability and not get into a cat fight, thanks. We all know how they perform.

With me chaps, I am not loaded and just like the boxster story above I would have to save hard to get my dream car. If I had a £8.5k rebuild issue, that would be a serious thing for me! I personally find a lot of bias on here. There is a distinct lack of objectivity. I can not see why anyone would buy a car and then have to have a warranty on it after the manufactures warranty. Is there such little faith in the car that people are worried about service and OPC and 111 point checks and £1,500 pa Porsche cover. It appears to me that the 997 is like a Hoover washing machine, if you are buying it you would need to get a 5 year cover simply because you know its not going to last as its not a Bosch machine. thats what i dont get with Porsche.. It should be like Bosch but it is not and thats is what sad about it all.

Before anyone says anything, i am sure there are plenty of happy 997 owners and they are the lucky ones...! My luck is never so good Wink

I have decided that for the time being the 997 is not the right car for me. I love the looks but I can not handle the poor TVR build… There is a reason why I am not looking at the TVR Sag. Despite what people say, i think there is a build issue with the 997. I would sleep worried that one day there will be tapping from the engine and I would have to sell my kidney to sort it out.

I think certain dreams are best left as dreams and if I am dreaming then the Gallardo is the car I would really want Wink

Thanks chaps for the insight.
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goodethernet
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ameer wrote:
Adrian, thanks for making that point. I suppose as I am not a Porsche owner I can look at things and evaluate things in an unbiased way.

Maxie, I do not need to get all shirty and badger others and ridicule them simply because they can not keep up in their cars… I know that my current 2 cars will do 50,000 miles without rebuilds, thanks. You can go break all the engines and speed limits you want. My point was to find out how good the 997 are in terms of reliability and not get into a cat fight, thanks. We all know how they perform.

With me chaps, I am not loaded and just like the boxster story above I would have to save hard to get my dream car. If I had a £8.5k rebuild issue, that would be a serious thing for me! I personally find a lot of bias on here. There is a distinct lack of objectivity. I can not see why anyone would buy a car and then have to have a warranty on it after the manufactures warranty. Is there such little faith in the car that people are worried about service and OPC and 111 point checks and £1,500 pa Porsche cover. It appears to me that the 997 is like a Hoover washing machine, if you are buying it you would need to get a 5 year cover simply because you know its not going to last as its not a Bosch machine. thats what i dont get with Porsche.. It should be like Bosch but it is not and thats is what sad about it all.

Before anyone says anything, i am sure there are plenty of happy 997 owners and they are the lucky ones...! My luck is never so good Wink

I have decided that for the time being the 997 is not the right car for me. I love the looks but I can not handle the poor TVR build… There is a reason why I am not looking at the TVR Sag. Despite what people say, i think there is a build issue with the 997. I would sleep worried that one day there will be tapping from the engine and I would have to sell my kidney to sort it out.

I think certain dreams are best left as dreams and if I am dreaming then the Gallardo is the car I would really want Wink

Thanks chaps for the insight.



......Yawn. TVR Build? Yep, sure.

EDITED TO ADD:

So far we have (gasp!) three cases of engine problems mentioned on this thread.

Porsche came out TOP of the 2008 JD Power Initial Quality Study in the USA with 87 faults vs. an industry standard of 118 (Audi 113, Honda 110).

Strangely TVR wasn't on the list but I would guess they would score about 350 if anyone owned one long enough to report in.

Yes, I know you're going to say that's not just 911s and the people that responded don't know what they are talking about and blah blah blah but for me it's a pretty good indication that Porsche has got its quality generally pretty well sorted and internet forums are not the place to form a balanced view.

Last edited by goodethernet on Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:25 am; edited 3 times in total
 
  
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Maxie
Yas Marina


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1

~ Maxie
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993C2S
Zolder


Joined: 05 Aug 2005
Posts: 5996
Location: Berkshire

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adrian996 wrote:
Stuart wrote:
ameer wrote:
This is a forum, as with most forums, is a place to learn/share stuff about something you are interested in... best to be open and frank!? No one is slating 911's as we all here seem to love cars and the 911!


Correct, and how do most people come upon forums? When they are researching potential purchases or when they have a problem... Question
Look at Pistonheads, 6speed and PCGB forums, all problem related. There are thousands of 997 and 996 owners who don't use forums until that moment when they have a problem and need advice. Using them as a gauge for % of car problems is highly misleading. No one wants engine trouble, hell my CEL flashed on briefly and I almost had a heart attack. It's very rare that I go online and actually post how much I love my 911 but as soon as I have a problem I'll be straight online asking for help...


This is something I've wondered for s while: it would be interesting to know what percentage of 997 (or any 911 really) owners use forums like this one? I'd bet it's less than 20%...? It just makes you wonder how the rest are getting on with theirs..?

Forums do seem to be largely used to get information and solve problems - but it does worry you when you hear such catastrophic stories concerning such expensive cars. My Indi recently told me a woeful tale about a guy in his twenties who had saved up for ages to buy a 2.7 Boxter. He'd bought it with 53K miles on it and was never happier - until a pin that goes through the main shaft (?) let go and blitzed his engine at 60K.

Now I know that there will be some who'll not be that surprised at this from a 2.7 Boxter with 60K miles but this in itself proves what we've come to accept from this manufacturer(?).

This poor guy now has a four wheeled white elephant on his drive which (at best) he'd get about £8k for in its current state.

Let's not beat around the bush here: Porsche launched the 3.4 996 well over ten years ago and have still not sorted the RMS issue!!! This is unforgivable and yet we've all just kept on buying them - myself included.


Well said Adrian, for me you've hit the nail on the head.
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adrian996
Hockenheim


Joined: 04 Oct 2008
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Location: The Graveyard of Ambition.


PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ameer. Personally, (IMHO, etc,etc) what I don't think that you should feel like a black sheep on this forum. I think that there are plenty of people who read this forum (and other similar forums) who don't feel the need to actually add anything to it - despite having plenty of problems with their cars themselves.

I take your point about the seemingly 'sycophantic' attitudes of some - but when these cars go well and behave they're great to own. Unfortunately this situation [seems] to be as elusive as Colonel Kurtz for some owners and they continually get little niggles with their cars. What annoys me (and maybe yourself?) is the fact that I grew up under the impression that anything with a Porsche badge on the front was going to be with you for life - and then passed on to your children!?

This is the only Porsche I've ever owned (I was "lucky" enough to get straight into a 911) - my previous car was a diesel VW Passat - and I've had no major problems. However, I've also been absolutely dumbfounded by some of the other things that have gone wrong with the car (which has just passed the 21,000 mile mark!!!).

RMS at 14,000: check!
All four discs corroded: check!
New washer motor for Litronic light washer and windscreen: check!
Annoying rattle from inside the roof lining when the sunroof is fully back: check!
And now, the one which you've all been waiting for....

New alternator at 20,000 miles: check!!! (That one cost me £380)

Now, I realise that these problems will be chicken feed to some peoples' - but I couldn't give a sh*t about other peoples' cars. I saved up for eight years to buy my 'dream' car as I couldn't (and wouldn't) go and buy something so ridiculous on the never-never and get the country into the state that's now in. And this is probably why there are some who'd say I was "moaning" or am "not keeping it real", etc. One other factor which doesn't help my cause is that I also own a 1992 Citroen ZX diesel which has covered 164,000 miles and never missed a beat. I've owned the car for fifteen years. It still has the original clutch, master cylinder, shock absorbers, water pump, diesel pump (despite having a diet of vegetable oil pumped through it for thousands of miles), engine (shock of shocks!!!).....I could go on. This car can't get arrested!!! It's probably now worth about £400 - and it'll never be sold. What a car! For fun, value for money, reliability it'll blow any Porsche into the dust. Fortunately, I have a beautiful wife and can "lay the pipe" - so I've never needed a Porsche to "...pull da chicks!!" No, I bought the Porsche 'cause it was a childhood dream and it gave me something to work towards - albeit for quite a long time!

Ameer, if I had a new OEM Porsche part for every time someone has said to me "....just enjoy your car, Adrian", then I would probably have saved a lot of money on parts!! Floor

Trust me, you're going to have to wait a very long time before you get some forum users to admit that they've bought a lemon (and even longer to admit that it's costing them £380 a month for the privilege!!)

As far Phil Raby not having anything bad to say about 997's is concerned: What a bloody revelation that is!!! frustrated I'm stunned!! He's the editor of a dedicated 911 magazine for God's sake! Grin
 
  
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993C2S
Zolder


Joined: 05 Aug 2005
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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^

Amen to that. You should have bought a 993 my friend Thumb
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adrian996
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...Are they any good?
 
  
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993C2S
Zolder


Joined: 05 Aug 2005
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1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adrian996 wrote:
...Are they any good?


Depends on what you mean by 'good' Wink

This will take the thread off topic, but in a nutshell the 993 pretty much answers your expectations expressed above of the Porsche brand regards quality, durability, reliability, cost effectiveness and pure driving pleasure.

The last old school (read proper) Porsche
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GD
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Joined: 20 Jun 2007
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2008 Porsche 997 Targa

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All three of my BMWs had major problems and touch wood, the Porsche's have not had any serious issues. Does that make me in the minority? I doubt.

I personally think the problem is exaggerated on the forums unfortunately, as you get a distorted view of the population based on this sample.

After a while everyone starts to believe that it's fact.

We also seem to get some recurring posters on here who seem to get enjoyment from talking about potential issues when they haven't even owned the marque themselves.

Not getting away from the OP here, who's had unbelievably bad luck and I hope the PCGB come through. I'd be amazed if they didn't, but I'm worried that because it's been out of the main dealer network will be reflected in any potential offer.
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scanning through the 4 pages of reports of piston failures on this post, the problem cylinder appears to be no 6, while another thread on a 997 4wd Engine Failure points to no 4. This makes 3(?) failures on the same bank. Anymore statistics I've missed might be helpful Question .
It also sounds as if the problem started with a bit of piston pick up which scored the bores and the rest started from there.
This points to a bit of overheating certainly on no 6 ie at the end of the bank, or less cool water on the "even bank of cylinders"
Can onyone comment on the water flow from the radiators through the engine and out again Question ? I have not got a good illustration of the cooling system to know how it flows.
Having rebuilt about 6/7 Aston Martin V8 Engines you always fitted slightly smaller pistons to No 7 and 8 Cylinders to reduce the risk of pick up under very hot conditions, because the cooling water came in at 1 and 2 and 7 and 8 were the last to get the water which by then was hotter!
Might all in the case of Porsche be absolute crap but might point to the reason which makes pushing Porsche for post failure support more helpful.
Regards Big Bob bye
 
  
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ameer
Monza


Joined: 12 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrian996, you seem to have a similar approach to me in your logic. I really appreciate the frankness in your post.

I have owned a Citroen AX, Fiat Cinquecento Sporting, Renault Megane coupe, Honda HRV, Audi TT and now a brand new S2000. The Citroen was great for 9 months until it was written off, the Fiat had endless issues for a year until it was written off, the Renault had endless electronic issues and the service from Renault was so bad I wish I written that off too. The Audi TT coupe was cheap to own and run and I was lucky to have no issues but a split CV gaitor in 3 years.. That cost £50 to fix! Cheap servicing too and low depreciation and it also was a crowd pleaser… I reckon that got as many looks as a 911… even though it is as common as muck. The Honda S2000.. I take it all the way to 9000 revs and it still ticks.. No issues and no rebuilds. I love cars and I am no car snob.. Its not about badge its about the design and feel for me...

The Porsche as you have quite rightly explained is a childhood dream… growing up and realising those years at school and university have finally got you to a point where at 28 you can buy a childhood dream is a great feeling. I went to my local Porsche indi.. Near Mill Hill.. They got a lovely silver 911S in their showroom… anyway.. I took a run down there the other day and just starred at it. Looked lovely… really got my heart pumping… Porsche is no Citroen or fiat or Renault… it is suppose to be so so much more and you are right.. You think of it as something which can be handed down! The disappointment comes when you realise it is not. It is a glorified BMW, Audi. Makes you think… its is worth the extra cost? Earlier I compared the 997 to a Hoover washing machine and that’s a shame of Porsche. Its fine probabily to own for the first 2 years.. Hence the 2 year warranty, after 15,000 miles they know that the car is prone to issues. That for me is what spoils it… it’s the bitter after taste you don’t want when you own something so stunning… I suppose its like sleeping with a supermodel and getting some sick STD from her… spoils the fun! Not talking from some personal experience I would like to add! I think for me it is nicer to see the 997 on the road being driven by other people.. I will still get my childhood thrill by just looking!

I am liking the sound of the 993.. Worth a look into this one I reckon Asim.
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adrian996
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ameer.

Firstly, I'm glad to read that you enjoy seeing a Porsche 911 on the road because (and I know this is REALLY weird) I still seem to get more pleasure from watching a 911 go by than actually driving my own..?! What the hell is that about..?! It's just the way that they all seem to sit on the road, the way they sound (especially when they HAVEN"T had their exhausts messed about with!), the way brush their teeth over the sink, the way they...Wooow! Sorry about that!!

Anyway, just to say that it sounds like you've pretty much got the bug (like it or not) and I have the feeling that, no matter what horrors you read here or elsewhere, you've pretty much had it I'm afraid! Wink

You can be very unlucky with some products. They used to say things like; "...he's bought a Friday afternoon car, there!" - insinuating that the car had been thrown together by people keen to get home for the weekend and making a shoddy job of it. I'm pretty sure you can get a bad AEG or Bosch washing machine too!

The thing is there aren't many people (even less nowadays) who buy a 911 to eat up motorway miles. As a result of this you can get really low mileage 911's which have never seen rain, have been marinated in Zymol and given the equivalent of executive relief on a regular basis - just like mine!! thumbsup BUT (and this is what kills it) it can sometimes be these cars that get the problems for no reason whatsoever, just bad luck.

(And please, no one tell me that "..It's because your not using it enough, mate" or "911's weren't designed to be Garage Queens" or I'll be tempted to put my car inside you.) The fact is that there's PLENTY of evidence for using a 911 every day - and maybe replacing the bloody engine at 70,000 miles OR treating it like mine and still getting troubles.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to this poor chap with Porsche UK. I know what I think will happen - but we'll have to see.
 
  
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Big Bob
Barcelona


Joined: 23 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Bob wrote:
Scanning through the 4 pages of reports of piston failures on this post, the problem cylinder appears to be no 6, while another thread on a 997 4wd Engine Failure points to no 4. This makes 3(?) failures on the same bank. Anymore statistics I've missed might be helpful Question .
It also sounds as if the problem started with a bit of piston pick up which scored the bores and the rest started from there.
This points to a bit of overheating certainly on no 6 ie at the end of the bank, or less cool water on the "even bank of cylinders"
Can onyone comment on the water flow from the radiators through the engine and out again Question ? I have not got a good illustration of the cooling system to know how it flows.
Having rebuilt about 6/7 Aston Martin V8 Engines you always fitted slightly smaller pistons to No 7 and 8 Cylinders to reduce the risk of pick up under very hot conditions, because the cooling water came in at 1 and 2 and 7 and 8 were the last to get the water which by then was hotter!
Might all in the case of Porsche be absolute crap but might point to the reason which makes pushing Porsche for post failure support more helpful.
Regards Big Bob bye


Could anyone help me out with my requests for information and questions Question in my earlier blog
Thanks Big Bob bye
 
  
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mike brown
Nürburgring


Joined: 15 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:30 pm    Post subject: engine annoyed Reply with quote

Hi I agree Porsches are oh so nice to look at when driven past, Concorde was like that for me, I went to New York on it and I can honestly say it was better to look at when taking off etc than being in. Ferraris are just the same, the other persons drawings at school always looked better though, oh where is this heading. regartds Mike
 
  
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