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Tiptronic
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Joined: 28 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys,

I have seen a 964 RS lightweight that I am interested in, and I need a crash course in information so that I can judge whether to buy or not,

What exactly should the spec of a 964RS lightweight be.

Do they have any rust protection?

What problems should I be looking for?

How fast, guy claims 350bhp, with a performance oil cooler and re map.

Car is LHD, with 38,000 kms, and apparentley in very clean condition though not mint, dont mind to much, as it will be a track day toy mostly. Has a roll cage and been in the country 5 years.

How do I know if it is a genuine RS, what numbers should I be looking for.

Regards


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Rodders
Magny-Cours


Joined: 12 Mar 2005
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Location: Banchory

1995 Porsche 993 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

try



www.porsche964.co.uk



964RS - A Buyer's Guide
By Laurence Gibbs


There have been buyers guides to most of the Porsche range in many magazines and the 964 range has been covered well. However the 964 RS is such a different beast to the Carrera 2 and 4 that I thought it was about time to cover it in more detail. The following applies to the basic/lightweight versions of the RS and LHD specifically. I will touch on RHD and touring versions at the end of the text.So lets start by looking at the obvious and the not so obvious changes that set the RS apart from the standard C2. From the outside, the most obvious change is to the ride height of the car. Lowered 40mm with the use of 40% stiffer springs and uniball solid top mountings, the RS has a purposeful stance. Wheels are 7.5 front and 9 rear and are of the Cup design and made of magnesium alloy. Underneath you will find adjustable anti roll bars front and rear. The rear trailing arms are also shorter than the C2 items to produce more positive handling. One interesting note about the attention that Porsche paid to detail with the suspension is that they specify that the locking wheel-nuts should fit opposite the tyre valves and this locking nut should in turn, be fitted to the red dot marked wheel stud! What is not so obvious to the eye is the fitting of an aluminium front bonnet and a revised rear middle section to the rear bumper. Both bumpers incidentally are made of de-formable plastic and you can confirm this by light pressure on these panels. Thinner gauge glass is standard except to the front screen. Front wings have beaded edges around the arches for tyre clearance. Do not go thinking that those front fog lights work either as they are just covers! Many owners replaced the fake fog lights, for brake cooling ducts. If you take more of a look underneath you will find that there is no under-body sealant although the plastic wheel arch covers remain. Brakes are from the 3.3 Turbo at the front and sport four pot callipers and drilled and ventilated discs. Rear brakes have four pot callipers but with smaller pistons, discs are drilled and ventilated. Incidentally the RS keeps the Carrera 4s high pressure braking system for better braking response and ABS is standard but features a modified program more in keeping with a race car. That just about covers the outside. What about the engine, drive-train and interior?The engine is designated M64/03(which should be stamped on the case) and basically is a standard Carrera 2, 3.6l flat six. However the engine uses matched pistons and barrels and does away with the dual mass flywheel for a free-er revving standard single mass item. The revised ECU extracted an extra 10 hp making 260hp total. The gearbox marked G50/10 features a limited slip differential, revised gearing and the gear stick is actually slightly taller and offset for a smoother shift. Steering in LHD cars has the benefit of no power assistance, except arm power!The interior of the RS is spartan to say the least. Two leather covered Recaro bucket seats replace the Carrera 2/4 electric items, there are no back seats (just a lighter carpet with the Carrera RS logo) and the steering wheel has the RS log embossed. Door panels also received the racing look with no door bins and a simple pull strap to open the door. All carpet is of a thin weave material. A radio was an option and cars came with provision for fitting but no speakers and a simple blanking plate. There is no interior light but the glovebox light somehow escaped the bin. In terms of electric luxuries, forget it, there is not even a heated rear screen! Although the element remains the wiring is not there. The standard heater does however remain (thank goodness). You will also have to master the old art of winding down the windows and adjusting the mirrors by hand!A simple stay holds up the front bonnet and the luggage compartment itself is sparsely trimmed. You will also find a master battery kill switch. The windscreen washer bottle only holds a couple of litres and is on the left. Contrary to some articles there was no strut-brace as standard! However, this is a popular addition fitted by many owners.Further to all the above the bodyshell was stiffened and modified to make allowance for lack of rear seats.So now you know the differences, what should you do when viewing a potential purchase? The first step should happen before you ever see the car. First, attain that the car has a full service history. Do not touch a car without a service history, ask yourself why it does not have one, and remember these are cherished supercars. Histories just arent lost! Try also to get an idea from the owner about the cars condition and whether it has had money spent on it. Enquire about whether the car has suffered any crash damage, do not necessarily be put off by a car that has had repairs but try to ascertain that it has been repaired properly. Porsche designed the RS to be used on the race track and many owners take part in track day events or even races and hill climbs. Accidents do happen and because the RS lends itself so well to track day fun and the fact that the car can be tricky and demands respect and skill at the limit, their are a lot of accident damaged RSs out there (in fact there are very few now, without some crash damage). However, the cars are very strong and a well repaired example will give you rewarding service even if it is not quite concourse anymore.So you have now chatted with the owner and you decide to go for a look. Take a good look around the car, check shut lines and obvious damage, if the owner has been honest he might even show you around the car and point out repairs. Do not forget that the front and rear bumpers should deform with light pressure, if they do not they have been replaced and the car has had some drama front or rear or both! Open the bonnet and remove the carpet the spare wheel area should be clean and tidy. Look for the compressor for the spare wheel and the tool kit, then check that the tool kit has all the correct tools (particularly the towing eye and fan belt nut spanner) these can be expensive to replace. The floor panel should be free of ripples. Seam sealed welds should not show excesses of sealer, indicating a possible poor repair. The bonnet should have its original paper data sticker, expect a repair if not. A magnet will confirm that the car has the correct aluminium bonnet! Check that the car has its original magnesium wheels and that they are in serviceable condition (you will not want to pay for a new set!). If the wheels require refurbishment this can be expensive and is a good haggling point, likewise the tyres should all be legal and preferably with plenty of tread left. If the car has after-market wheels but you are not concerned with originality all well and good but do try to ascertain that they have the correct offsets and are not fouling the wheel arches! Whilst under the bonnet check the chassis number matches both the log book and the service book and that it matches the plate found under the tank (or on later cars on the windscreen pillar). Make sure that it is an RS chassis number! The number should begin WPOZZZ96ZNS49. Close the bonnet and check the shut lines, are they even! Now look around the roof gutter line and windscreen pillars, over-spray and cracking paint etc all suggest crash damage and in the roof area suggests that the car could have been on its roof! Now open the engine lid and cast your eyes down the flanks of the arches. Do all the spot welds look even? Is there excessive seam sealant more one side than the other? Again, suspect drama at the rear. Good quality repairs will largely be free of these faults and indeed a top class repair will be very hard to spot! Whilst in the engine bay take a look at the engine and check its engine number, which can be found (with a torch) on the RHS on the fan pedestal. Does it look well looked after! Grubby engines do not necessarily mean poorly looked after, but a clean engine gets brownie points in my book.Now lets look at the interior. First of take a general look around does it look clean and tidy. Many owners fit roll cages and harnesses and these can be a good or bad selling point depending on your view. My own view is that you will almost certainly take the car on track at some point and as your enthusiasm and experience grows, harnesses become necessary and the cage will give you piece of mind. Take a look under the dash, is it tidy or spaghetti junction. Poor wiring will give you problems and there should be no reason for a car so young to have it is wiring pulled about, ask yourself why!Do the seats and gearshift reflect the car's mileage. There are many clocked Porsches out there. Do the colours match the original spec! Do all the switches knobs etc work! What there are of them!Once satisfied with the above checks it is time for the fun bit. The test-drive. Lets not get carried away, first things first. Start the engine, it should start first time and all warning lights except the spoiler should go out within about 15 sec. If the engine is cold a small cloud of oil smoke is perfectly normal on start up, but should not persist. Do not confuse oil smoke with water vapour either, condensation gathers inside the exhaust and after a few minutes will burn off. The engine should idle cleanly but may stall easily when cold. You may hear a chattering from the gearbox whilst still at rest this is normal and is the clutch release mechanism, if you depress the clutch the noise should go! Be prepared, engine and gearbox noise will be much greater than in a standard car due the lack of soundproofing. A certain amount of diff chatter at low speed is normal. There should obviously be no clunks from the suspension or steering when on the move. The ride will be ultra firm; I recall one contemporary tester describing the action of the suspension over potholes as like a rubber mallet on wood! Steering at low speeds will be heavy but lightens up nicely when pushing on. Check that the clutch action is smooth and that the engine pulls cleanly. The car should track straight and true on flat un-cambered roads but will almost certainly wander a little if the surface becomes poor or rutted. Try the brakes on straight and level ground and well away from other traffic. The stopping power should have your eyeballs out! Do not expect to get the ABS working in the dry unless driving like a maniac (not recommended). A flat grass field may work if the owners willing (would you!). If you can persuade the owner, get the car put up on a four-post lift and take a good look at the underside. Even the most mechanically inept can spot an oil leak! Whilst your there check the cars underside and suspension for damage and general condition. Test drive and checks over and suitably impressed, now go and study the service history and logbook. Be sure to take a thorough look and try to establish through the records that the mileage is genuine and that all things add up, phone a previous owner if you can to ascertain that what is written is true. The next part is up to you and largely depends on, your expertise, bravery or stupidity! If you are at all doubtful of your ability to asses the car or you require extra piece of mind, then the next thing to do is get the car checked out by a specialist. This step is most recommended as he/she can confirm the engine and mechanical state of health and may be able to comment on body condition and crash damage repair.If you have come this far, I guess you want to know how much to pay for the object of your desire. At the time of writing excellent low mileage 0-30k km crash free un-tracked cars are becoming like rocking horses and I would advise if you own one, LOOK AFTER IT (I speak from bitter experience) 29k is probably the lowest your are going to find an RS in that condition, 32k should buy you something truly like new and a car you will want to own forever. Next level down is the higher mileage car probably tracked but not crashed and the nicely repaired lower mileage cars. All should have good histories and the crashed examples should be repaired well, possibly with a Porsche Body shop warranty. Expect to pay between 24K-28k depending on condition, mileage. Next level down from this are the generally high mileage cars with some damage and lower mileage cars with repairs that are sound but not pretty, or cars that require work to bring them up to spec. These arent basket cases and are good usable buys and represent something of a performance bargain and a potent track day weapon, though possibly not the nicest looking examples. Expect to pay 21-24k.RSs can be found for less but there is usually a reason for these cars being so cheap and often these cars can be highly suspect in one way or another! Anything in the sub 20k bracket will probably be a poorly repaired black hole for bank notes. My advice would be to steer clear, unless you are particularly brave or stupid (just delete what does not apply). Finally, have a contingency fund, about 1k-5k depending on the condition of the car for unexpected bills. Even the nicest low mileage like factory new car will probably want a suspension set up and some new tyres! A not so low mileage one will almost certainly need it, especially if you intend to get the most out of your new charge on track.I said at the beginning that I would touch on RHD and touring. The main difference to RHD spec is power steering. There were very few UK RHD examples made and some cars were imported from Japan and other RHD markets. Expect to add at least 10k to the average LHD price for any RHD car. The touring model was basically a Carrera 2 with the RS body and suspension, more comfortable sports seats and dual mass flywheel and all the electric toys you could wish for, even a sun roof. This article has perhaps just skimmed the surface and I have not even touched upon the Club sport and similar spec cup models. Until next time..



surely that should be some revelent info for ya


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Tiptronic
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Joined: 28 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan,

Thank you very much.

Someone give me a value on the car please,

apparentley it has some minor paint on the wing, and front bumper, which has been done to a good standard, though in certain lights at night, you could possibly spot the wing as having had some paint.

Full History in Germany from main dealer, and when it came here it was looked after by Strasse, are they any good?

Daz


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ian_uk
Imola


Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Strasse are good regarding looking after a car. Doesn't mean the car is good of course but they know what they are doing and would be very competant at looking after a 964RS.

Decent 964RSs are very difficult to find so be thorough before you buy. They are also jumpy on the road as the suspension is bloody hard. Are they fast? - well depends - a standard 993 is faster around the 'Ring than a standard 964RS to put it in perspective but that's progress for you. And you'll notice the step down from your 996.

If the car has a claimed boost in power you want to see a recent Dyno plot to back that up. 350BHP would take more than a remap to achieve.

However as a track toy a 964RS is fantastic fun. Will it be the quickest on the track - no - but does that really matter? My 73 2.4E track car only has 165BHP but it doesn't matter as it's just so much fun to drive and is a real event to drive which is what the 964 RS gives you too. You probably need to test drive one as its so different to the 996 but you might just love it.

Ian.

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Jamie Summers
Österreich


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 887
Location: Esher, Surrey

1992 Porsche 964 RS

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be very nervous about buying a 964 RS from someone who claims it has 350Bhp - it hasn't. Almost physically impossible to get much over 300 without some serious surgery, not just a remap. We are talking cams, titanium hardware, ported heads, trick exhaust, and Motec - probably 10k's worth of work.

I would also be nervous of the 'paintwork'. On a RS I would want the repairs done to the extent that they were entirely invisible. It all smacks to me of a car that's probably led a hard life and as not necessarily been as well looked after as it should have been.

That said, if the price reflects this ie well under 30K then it's probably worth a look.

Jamie


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Tiptronic
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will I notice a diffrence in performance from the 996 C4S, I thought that it would be quicker, because it is lighter and no mod cons

The car is 24,995, and a left hooker,

FSH, and receipts for 12,000 worth of work at Strasse.

It has had paint to the front wing, and front bumper, other than that nothing, or so claimed



24,000 miles. 1 owner since arriving in the uk, left hand drive, beautiful condition, road and track legal, 350 bhp, bills for 12000 detailing suspension and engine upgrades, roll cage, recaros and harnesses, full service history from new, genuine mileage, very fast with superb handling, white with black interior, HPI clear, part x and finance available 24,990.


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Will G-J
Nürburgring


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 457
Location: Liverpool


PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


http://www.911uk.com/car.asp?stockid=37547

I'm sure you've seen this one already but....


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ian_uk
Imola


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it really has 350BHP then performance will be much faster than a standard RS. As a buyer I would want the seller or the company who did the work to convince me it really had the power claimed. 12K in bills is easy to rack up on all sorts of stuff.

It's in a great colour for an RS.

It does seem cheap though. The description adds up to a car that should be selling for more.

Ian.





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nic_
Donuts For Windows


Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Speed Freak on 07 July 2006

Will I notice a diffrence in performance from the 996 C4S, I thought that it would be quicker, because it is lighter and no mod cons

The car is 24,995, and a left hooker,

FSH, and receipts for 12,000 worth of work at Strasse.

It has had paint to the front wing, and front bumper, other than that nothing, or so claimed



24,000 miles. 1 owner since arriving in the uk, left hand drive, beautiful condition, road and track legal, 350 bhp, bills for 12000 detailing suspension and engine upgrades, roll cage, recaros and harnesses, full service history from new, genuine mileage, very fast with superb handling, white with black interior, HPI clear, part x and finance available 24,990.


I think something isn;t right with it....

Des wouldn't let his go for less than 30-32K


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Tiptronic
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree, and its too far away for me to go and see without being confident.

Think I will start the search for a GT3 or 996tt instead


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Jamie Summers
Österreich


Joined: 29 Oct 2002
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1992 Porsche 964 RS

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz,

Something really doesn't stack up with that RS. If the spec is as described it should be for sale for 30k plus, no doubt. The description reminds me of a car that Henry at 911Virgin.com sold about two years ago for c.23K. To the untrained eye it looked fine, but there were a few clues that all was not 100% kosher. It had a standard Carrera rear bumper section and non standard RS seats, the front smile was also a bit crooked. It was a genuine RS alright, but had been in the wars a bit ....

Where is the car in question for sale ? It sounds like a dealer (given the offer of finance and PX). If he is knocking it out for 24,999 then you can bet he didn't pay over 20K for it. Frankly who would sell an RS with that kind of spec and mileage for 20K. I suggest a quick call to Strasse might resolve the matter .................

Jamie


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Jamie Summers
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1992 Porsche 964 RS

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who's selling the car ? Might make things a bit clearer if we knew this - is it a Porsche specialist or a 'general' sports car dealer. Sometimes they do get their pricing wrong.

Again if Strasse weren't prepared to discuss a car over the phone that would make me nervous. I appreciate aspects of client confidentiallity but if you sounded like a serious buyer I can't see why Strasse wouldn't give you basic details on what had or hadn't been done to the car in their care ???

Jamie


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Carrera
Estoril


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't be too happy if they can't give details over the phone, I mean, you're not asking about reg no. or VIN no. just "about" the car, so they can't realistically expect you to go all the way there without know at least some details about what you're seeing! Low 20's is a bit low for an RS, so there must be a reason for it. Even if they had a bang in the past, if it's not a bad one it shouldn't lower the price by 10k if fixed properly.

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Richard Eff
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daz, have you thought about looking at one of these?
http://www.psautoart.com/index.html

I'd be quite tempted by one but as I would also be tempted by a nice 356 Speedster, I must be going a bit retro!


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Tiptronic
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw these at Goodwood,

And they look fab in the flesh.

Jamie,

I chose not to visit this dealer, it was a 230 mile one way trip, because

a; he claims 350 bhp, and when challenged on what the mods and receipts were, he became vague, and said that he would get in touch with previous seller, and report back, nothing so far.

b; he mentioned that a couple of people had been to look at it, and had walked away because it wasnt perfect, and he said what do you expect for 25k, well IMO, if it was underpriced because he did not know what he had, they would have bought it if it was a good one.

c; put off a bit, by the fact that mine is faster, I thought that a 350 bhp RS would be faster, then it aint a 350bhp RS, otherwise it would have sold by now, and it has been on sale a while.

d; The wrong colour wing in white put me off,

e; Buying an RS is only an investment if the base car is any good.


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