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996 porous engine

Oh and good luck for tomorrow Alison.

Migration info. Legacy thread was 53461
 
I’ve just had a very long conversation with a representative of Porsche Customer Assistance. In a nutshell, they are leaving me high and dry. They do not accept that the crack in the cylinder is a systematic manufacturing fault, or that it is a common occurrence (but didn't know how many M96 engines had actually been replaced). They argue that if it were a manufacturing fault, then the engine would have failed within the manufacturers’ warranty period (2yrs), and that its failure now could be due to mistreatment by a previous owner. Interestingly, they could not, or would not, tell me whether the current engine is the original, and in any case, even if it had already been given a new engine, they still wouldn’t replace it under ‘good will’, because it hasn’t always been serviced by an OPC. They also say that they are the only manufacturer to provide a good will warranty to cars up to 5 yrs old, i.e., up to 3 yrs out of manufacturers’ warranty. As my car is now 7 yrs old, its not possible for them to replace the engine because they have to draw the line somewhere. The only circumstances under which they would reconsider their position would be if I could prove that the engine had failed due to a manufacturing fault.

I have been told that if I want a discount on a replacement engine, then I have to take it up with the OPC that sold me the car.

Does anyone have any advice, or know a good lawyer?

Alison

Migration info. Legacy thread was 53676
 
Not the best of news at all - sorry to hear you had no success. :(
It doesn't bode well for the rest of us with 3.4s

Migration info. Legacy thread was 53680
 
Alison, I'm sorry to hear that was their response, I'm not a lawyer but on the mechanical side...

as already mentioned, it is worth trying an indie who may actually be able to repair / rebuild the engine at a much lower cost than a new engine.. which is probably the way to get this moving


Migration info. Legacy thread was 53681
 
Wise words Sundeep, and having slept on it, I think that I will get the engine examined and rebuilt by an indepedent specialist; I don't want Porche GB or their OPCs to make any more money out of me, so buying a new engine from them is not top of my list of preferred solutions. I am also on a crusade to find out why my engine failed and in order to do this, it will have to be stripped down and examined. My idependent technician is currently weighing up some options for me in terms of suitable companies to undertake the rebuild. Perfect Bore are currently top of the list, but not much cheaper than a new engine if the job is done thoroughly.

Can anyone recommend an independent engineer who would be qualified to examine the engine and determine (with sufficient authority from a legal perspective) whether the fault is 'wear and tear', or a manufacturing defect?

My next dilema will be whether or not to keep the car after its been rebuilt - I used to love it, but right now, driving around in a 996 will make me feel like a complete mug.

Finally, does anyone have any photos of craked bores on M96 engines? Somone on the PCGB forum kindly posted a couple (http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/fb.asp?m=196336).

Cheers,

Alison

Migration info. Legacy thread was 53836
 
Alison. Re the engineer, I would have thought that if you are considering some form of legal action, a metalurgist (or however it's spelt) would be he best bet to identify the cause. Don't know how much it would cost but labs are never cheap.

Migration info. Legacy thread was 53839
 
Hi Alison

very sorry to hear about this, I think it's appalling....... 69k!!!!!! have a look at this months 911 and porsche world there's am article on this problem. JZ machtech rebuilt my old 964 engine but they weren't that keen on 996 re builds....... not practical/cost effective, poorly engineered, blah blah
Autofarm are doing some sort of new cylinder sleeving for 996's you may want to check out

all the best

Ash

Migration info. Legacy thread was 53929
 
Hi guys. I spent the weekend lurching between just walking away from the whole mess with a burning resentment, to fighting the bast**ds. I decided on the latter, because this is just not right. The M96 engine is clearly flawed and no court could fail to conclude this on the basis of the evidence that currently exists.

Someone on the PCGB posted some photos of 6 'knackered' M96 engines that were stacked outside the Wilmslow OPC waiting to go back to Germany. He took the photo last weekend, and a similar one last year - different eingine, same OPC. The problem appears to be HUGE, so would Porsche really want the true proportion of M96 engined cars with failed engines to be made public?

I intend to have my car's engine removed and inspected by an indpenedent engineer, and to speak to CAB and Trading Standards, who will probably also be able to put me intouch with a legal firm that specialises in this area of law.

I emailed the principal at OPC Bournemouth today (they sold me the car) demanding that they replace the defective engine FOC, as the original was not 'fit for purpose'. Porsche GB also dropped the OPC in it by suggesting that the engine failed because of mistreatment by a previous owner (can this be deduced from the engine managment system?).

Anyway...watch this space for more news on the OPC response.

Thanks again.

Alison

Migration info. Legacy thread was 54254
 
Here's the OPC Bournemouth's (predicatable) response. He's very quick to point out that its up to me to prove that the car was not fit for purpose, and that its all my fault because I strayed outside the OPC network. He also expresses no sympathy or regret that the car I paid his company £45k for 3 yrs ago is now little more than a heap of scrap:
_________________

Thank you for your e mail updating us on Porsche Cars Gt. Britain
response to your letter of the7th April. I have had detailed discussions
with my colleagues from our Aftersales Dept.but regret to advise you
that we would strongly contest your claim of selling you a car which was
not fit for it's purpose.

As you may be aware the law does state that the burden of proof after
six months since purchase falls on the purchaser to prove their case. In
these circumstances the vehicle was of course purchased in January 2003,
at a mileage of 26000 and has now covered, according to your letter, a
total distance of 68000 miles. In addition to this important point we
have not had the opportunity to carry out any inspection or maintenance
since 29th October, 2004, when I believe the car had covered 50,000
miles.

We are however very happy to meet with you to explain our position in
more detail and if this is of interest please give a call at any time.
_____________

If my case was an isolated one, then I'd agree with those who suggest I stand very little chance of proving my point after putting a further £40k miles on the engine, BUT lots of M96 engined cars are failing. Why would Autobarn and Perfect Bore be offering a solution to the problem if the problem weren't big enough to make it worth their while? Plus, their business represents only a fraction of the total number of failures, as some will be under warranty. One post on the PCGB forum reports six knackered 996 engines stacked outside one OPC - surely this represents a huge proportion of the total number of 996s on this OPC's books, and its a happening week in, week out.

I am taking legal advice and will make a decision based upon this, not my overwhelming sense of resentment about Porsche's shoddy treatment of me, and others.

I'm sorry to say it, but if you own a 996 (or Boxster by all accounts), all the evidence suggests that you are driving around in a time bomb. Just because you've got to 60k miles without the engine blowing up, don't think you've got 'one of the good ones' - mine went completely at 68k (looking back, it had been 'going' for some time). Either get yourself an Porsche warranty quick, or sell the car - its a liability, and Porsche will be only to happy to make more money out of you by denying responsibility and selling you a new engine at full whack (which is now £11.5k - the recent price increase is probably now subsidising the warranty replacements - how 'sharp' is that - no wonder they are the most profitable car company in the world).

Regretably, this will be my last Porsche; the dream has become a nighmare, and I will never forgive the brand for this. The company is trading on a reputation that it can no longer live up to; its selling a mass produced product at a premium price, and ripping off its customers in the process. Warranty or not, I had a right to expect that my car would last more than 68k miles and that it would not fail because the engine wasn't built properly. Its a shame, because i loved the car and I'm having a hard time deciding what to replace it with (once I've recovered from this financial hit), but Porsche will never see any of my hard-earned cash again.

Sell your M96 engined cars, or get a warranty today - they're a time bomb - take my word for it, its a mess when they go off and Porsche will do absolutely nothing to help you - profit is King!

Alison

Migration info. Legacy thread was 54373
 
Alison, if I were you I'd go the Indie replacement/rebuild route and forget about legal action against Porsche. I'm no lawyer but I suspect it would be a very difficult case to prove, Porsche would field top lawyers, and if you lost you'd be paying out an absolute fortune in costs.

I get the impression that Porsche (both Gb and AG in Germany) are arrogant, uncaring, have no idea about customer service and are uninterested in customer loyalty - there will always be a queue of mug punters. You seem to be finding this out at first-hand.

I'm afraid that engine failure and RMS failure are two of the risks one takes on when buying a 996 (or Boxster or 997 even?). Once you get it fixed, though, you'll still have a car that's a great drive. But I can understand you wouldn't want to buy another Porsche.

I hope that you get some sort of reasonable result.


Migration info. Legacy thread was 54377
 
Alison, sorry to hear no joy - but they weren't going to fold after a few letters. Obviously under the sales of goods act, as he says the burden of proof is now on you, but the other bit of that legislation says " That the goods must be of satisfactory quality". Your argument would be that 68K is not satisfactory. Which of course it is not, because most porsches go well past 100K.

Of course you are going to have to prove that you did not "misuse" the car.

Good luck


Migration info. Legacy thread was 54385
 
Something that I think is quite interesting about the M96 engine fiasco is that Porsche hasn't sued anyone for libel or slander in response to the criticism of its engine. If, as they claim, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and the failures are isolated incidents, then wouldn't you expect them to be outraged and to strenuously defend the quality of their product; its not as though they can't afford to take it to court? Is their lack of action because they know that they would lose the case in court, because the engine is genuinely flawed?

Anyway, here's an update on my car saga.

I've discovered that my 996 is already on its second engine - the origianl one failed during its first year (1999) and was replaced under warranty, so this will make it the third engine. Tell me how this is acceptable for a prestige car that cost four times what my Renault Scenic did? The Scenic is still going strong on nothing more than consumables at 120k miles! Its a crap drive, but you can't knock the value for money.

It seems that even if they supplied their new cars with a spare, the 996 would need at least two. but I'm really beating myself up about the financial suicide I will be commiting if I walk away from this car after spending a best part of £15k to get is up and running again. Maybe the bad taste will subside, or someone connected with this mess will take pity on me and restore my faith in the brand...'pigs might fly' springs to mind.

Alison

Migration info. Legacy thread was 54572
 
This is an ongoing saga across the porsche discussion forums worldwide. There is clearly an engineering fault with this engine, when you pay £45k for a used car from an authorised dealer i would expect to see 10 years from such a vehicle. With porsche, you are paying for quality engineering not creature comforts (people always comment on how 'Basic' my 993 is!), so on a 996, where is that quality?? 996 die hards are saying that this is a very rare occurrence, but there is all evidence to the contrary, i personally, would not be happy with a 996 as i feel, as Alison has mentioned, they have this 'Time bomb' feeling about them there is nothing worse than a performance vehicle with an unreliable power plant.
I had a 964 and I read all about the engines faults.........and sure enough it packed up, on the bottom end, but it hadn't been well maintained so it was kinda understandable, but a little dissapointing from a "quality" engine. But that was, a £19k, well and truly "used" car bought by a novice, not a £45k main dealer "assured" car.
I often discuss this with the guys at my Specialist and all the mechanics and managers say how poor the engineering is on the early 996's and boxters are, but nowadays, and i think this is applicable to Mercedes and BMW, it's all about "bean counting' and not quality.

Shame.

Migration info. Legacy thread was 54574
 
The news from my 'brief' gives some cause for slight optimism. He has found a case from the 1980s relating to Range Rover that may be helpful. The judge found in favour of the owner under the Sale of Goods Act because he believed that the name Range Rover justifiably created some preconceptions about quality in the mind of the purchaser that were not matched by the performance of the product. He's going to send a letter to the OPC (who have remained intransigent throughout, and not replied al all to the email that I sent a week ago) pointing out the case law and we'll see what happens. Still not holding my breath. In the meantime, I can't hang around and wait for them to do the right thing, because car sharing with my partner is a nightmare.

I have spent much of the last week looking at my options with respect to releasing the equity that's tied up in my car. The worst proposition I had was from a dealer who offered to take the car off my hands for £10k. The best is from RSJ (the company I was originally going to buy the 996TT from) who have made a much more generous offer on my non-runner in PX for the 996TT. Joel at RSJ had been a complete 'gent' about the whole thing and has really tried to do his best for me. The upshot is that it would be financial suicide for me to do anything other then accept Joel's offer, so all being well, I will be going ahead with my 996TT purchase....I just couldn't find another way out of it, even though I'm still really hacked of the Porsche for the way that they are treating their customers over this engine fault. Thankfully, the 996TT has an entirely different engine to the standard 996 AND I will take out a warranty, because I can't afford not to!

On the subject of warranties, I also discovered that Porsche probably insure themselves against the cost of repairs under warranty - the risk actually appears to be taken by Car Care Plan (Black Horse Warranties). That explains why Porsche don't mind handing out warranties on cars they know will need a new engine every 40k miles. I wonder how long it will take before the warranty company get wise to what Porsche are doing?

Anyway, I hope that everyone has a great weekend.

Alison

Migration info. Legacy thread was 56179
 

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