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Tiptronic
Shanghai


Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 4685



PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


<Sorry image not available after migration>

We must have a few lawyers on this forum, whats the rules regarding a manufacturing fault that devolops years after the wtty runs out?

I guess you have to prove it, however once you do, surley the flood gates open and it becomes a kind of american tort.

Daz


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Fingers
Imola


Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 854
Location: Sydney, Australia


PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Alison

I visited my OPC today and had a good chat about your car and other issues. Seems like the 3.4 litre engine is the worst culprit - at least in JP.

In a nutshell the price is about the same here -sorry can't help there BUT, the price in the US is a LOT cheaper.

My contact (top bloke) said that he was shocked you were not get any support. He said the process (at least here in JP) is that when a customer brings in a car with a major problem such as yours and there is no warranty, the OPC writes to the national HQ of Porsche. Who then in turn contact PAG - apparently there is a central claims / technical department which intercepts technical problems / recalls / product failure in PAG.

They decide if you should get any support or not. If you bought the car new - the chances are higher. If not, they would be more generous to an OPC approved secondhand car.

What my contact said that was very interesting was that you can write to PAG directly (get the details from PCGB) and put in a letter about your problem. The chances of getting a new engine for free are the same as getting a free car from Porsche - no chance! BUT, you can bargain, my contact said that sometimes, Porsche go 50/50 with the customer on the cost, or they give you the parts for 50% off and you pay the OPC's hourly rate for the labour. Or they give you the engine and you pay for the install. He said that he would strongly recommend that you tell Porsche that you are prepared to go half way (if you have no warranty) and get a quick result.

Let us know how you go.

Servo

PS Its sad when this sort of thing happens but there is no bullet proof car in the world.


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Alison McConnell
Newbie


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Bournemouth


PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Servo,

You star. Thanks so much for the 'intel'. I will certainly give PAG a try as you suggest, and let you [all] know how I fair.

You're right, there's no such thing as a completely bullet proof car, but I thought that a Porsche was as close as you got, and expected to get more than 70k (respectful) miles out of it.

Cheers, Alison

PS. Love your super hero 'icon'.

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Seagull
Estoril


Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 3657



PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't massage his ego Alison, he's already got a 997. Wink

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Fingers
Imola


Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 854
Location: Sydney, Australia


PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previous poster wrote:
Quote: Originally posted by Seagull on 08 April 2006

Don't massage his ego Alison, he's already got a 997. Wink


LOL - no please massage my ego! Flattery will is most welcome!


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Andy Purvis
Newbie


Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 2
Location: Highworth


PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alison

My 2000 C4 engin blowup at 16K miles, same problem. I was lucky my car was 6 months outside warranty PGB fitted a new one only charging for fluids about 400.

Strange but Porsche Club GB serveyed all 996 owners about this problem, I was not able to obtain a copy of their findings.

Have not had any problems with the new unit although I have only done about 3K miles, downside of not using the car was all new discs and pads at 19K expensive motering per mile!

Regards

Andy P Swindon




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Alison McConnell
Newbie


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Bournemouth


PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello guys, I thought I'd give you an update. After writing to the MD at Porsche GB and someone at PAG whose name was given to me by someone on the owner's club forum, I was contacted immediately by Porsche GB Customer Assistance. They are now 'investigating the circumsatnces of my concerns'. I have been told that I will receive the results of these investigations tomorrow (Thurs 14th April). I can only hope that Porsche have finally realised that not looking after their customers when their product breaks is actually bad for their reputation?

ANDY - I have also heard that a survey of 996 owners was conducted by PCGB, but haven't been able to track it down. However, I also leant that the PCGB forum is regulated by Porsche GB. Could these factors be related?

Thanks again guys for your support - I'll report back.

Alison

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ian_uk
Imola


Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 777



PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The PCGB forum is not regulated by Porsche GB. Somebody is feeding you misleading information.

The survey that was done by PCGB was for RMS failure rates not engine failure rates.

Ian.


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Alison McConnell
Newbie


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Bournemouth


PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ian,

Someone form the PCGB has already put me right on this one, and explained about the survey...Chinese whispers eh..?

ATB,

Alison

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Parts
Dijon


Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 7590



PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope the result is positive tomorrow Alison.

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ian_uk
Imola


Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 777



PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and good luck for tomorrow Alison.

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Alison McConnell
Newbie


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Bournemouth


PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive just had a very long conversation with a representative of Porsche Customer Assistance. In a nutshell, they are leaving me high and dry. They do not accept that the crack in the cylinder is a systematic manufacturing fault, or that it is a common occurrence (but didn't know how many M96 engines had actually been replaced). They argue that if it were a manufacturing fault, then the engine would have failed within the manufacturers warranty period (2yrs), and that its failure now could be due to mistreatment by a previous owner. Interestingly, they could not, or would not, tell me whether the current engine is the original, and in any case, even if it had already been given a new engine, they still wouldnt replace it under good will, because it hasnt always been serviced by an OPC. They also say that they are the only manufacturer to provide a good will warranty to cars up to 5 yrs old, i.e., up to 3 yrs out of manufacturers warranty. As my car is now 7 yrs old, its not possible for them to replace the engine because they have to draw the line somewhere. The only circumstances under which they would reconsider their position would be if I could prove that the engine had failed due to a manufacturing fault.

I have been told that if I want a discount on a replacement engine, then I have to take it up with the OPC that sold me the car.

Does anyone have any advice, or know a good lawyer?

Alison

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Parts
Dijon


Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 7590



PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not the best of news at all - sorry to hear you had no success. Sad
It doesn't bode well for the rest of us with 3.4s

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Porsche
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 12735
Location: Nürburgring Nordschleife

2003 Porsche 996 GT3 Mk2

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alison, I'm sorry to hear that was their response, I'm not a lawyer but on the mechanical side...

as already mentioned, it is worth trying an indie who may actually be able to repair / rebuild the engine at a much lower cost than a new engine.. which is probably the way to get this moving


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Alison McConnell
Newbie


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Bournemouth


PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wise words Sundeep, and having slept on it, I think that I will get the engine examined and rebuilt by an indepedent specialist; I don't want Porche GB or their OPCs to make any more money out of me, so buying a new engine from them is not top of my list of preferred solutions. I am also on a crusade to find out why my engine failed and in order to do this, it will have to be stripped down and examined. My idependent technician is currently weighing up some options for me in terms of suitable companies to undertake the rebuild. Perfect Bore are currently top of the list, but not much cheaper than a new engine if the job is done thoroughly.

Can anyone recommend an independent engineer who would be qualified to examine the engine and determine (with sufficient authority from a legal perspective) whether the fault is 'wear and tear', or a manufacturing defect?

My next dilema will be whether or not to keep the car after its been rebuilt - I used to love it, but right now, driving around in a 996 will make me feel like a complete mug.

Finally, does anyone have any photos of craked bores on M96 engines? Somone on the PCGB forum kindly posted a couple (http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/fb.asp?m=196336).

Cheers,

Alison

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Seagull
Estoril


Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 3657



PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alison. Re the engineer, I would have thought that if you are considering some form of legal action, a metalurgist (or however it's spelt) would be he best bet to identify the cause. Don't know how much it would cost but labs are never cheap.

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AP90
Nürburgring


Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 385
Location: Cornwall UK


PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Alison

very sorry to hear about this, I think it's appalling....... 69k!!!!!! have a look at this months 911 and porsche world there's am article on this problem. JZ machtech rebuilt my old 964 engine but they weren't that keen on 996 re builds....... not practical/cost effective, poorly engineered, blah blah
Autofarm are doing some sort of new cylinder sleeving for 996's you may want to check out

all the best

Ash

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Alison McConnell
Newbie


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Bournemouth


PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys. I spent the weekend lurching between just walking away from the whole mess with a burning resentment, to fighting the bast**ds. I decided on the latter, because this is just not right. The M96 engine is clearly flawed and no court could fail to conclude this on the basis of the evidence that currently exists.

Someone on the PCGB posted some photos of 6 'knackered' M96 engines that were stacked outside the Wilmslow OPC waiting to go back to Germany. He took the photo last weekend, and a similar one last year - different eingine, same OPC. The problem appears to be HUGE, so would Porsche really want the true proportion of M96 engined cars with failed engines to be made public?

I intend to have my car's engine removed and inspected by an indpenedent engineer, and to speak to CAB and Trading Standards, who will probably also be able to put me intouch with a legal firm that specialises in this area of law.

I emailed the principal at OPC Bournemouth today (they sold me the car) demanding that they replace the defective engine FOC, as the original was not 'fit for purpose'. Porsche GB also dropped the OPC in it by suggesting that the engine failed because of mistreatment by a previous owner (can this be deduced from the engine managment system?).

Anyway...watch this space for more news on the OPC response.

Thanks again.

Alison

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Alison McConnell
Newbie


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Bournemouth


PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the OPC Bournemouth's (predicatable) response. He's very quick to point out that its up to me to prove that the car was not fit for purpose, and that its all my fault because I strayed outside the OPC network. He also expresses no sympathy or regret that the car I paid his company 45k for 3 yrs ago is now little more than a heap of scrap:
_________________

Thank you for your e mail updating us on Porsche Cars Gt. Britain
response to your letter of the7th April. I have had detailed discussions
with my colleagues from our Aftersales Dept.but regret to advise you
that we would strongly contest your claim of selling you a car which was
not fit for it's purpose.

As you may be aware the law does state that the burden of proof after
six months since purchase falls on the purchaser to prove their case. In
these circumstances the vehicle was of course purchased in January 2003,
at a mileage of 26000 and has now covered, according to your letter, a
total distance of 68000 miles. In addition to this important point we
have not had the opportunity to carry out any inspection or maintenance
since 29th October, 2004, when I believe the car had covered 50,000
miles.

We are however very happy to meet with you to explain our position in
more detail and if this is of interest please give a call at any time.
_____________

If my case was an isolated one, then I'd agree with those who suggest I stand very little chance of proving my point after putting a further 40k miles on the engine, BUT lots of M96 engined cars are failing. Why would Autobarn and Perfect Bore be offering a solution to the problem if the problem weren't big enough to make it worth their while? Plus, their business represents only a fraction of the total number of failures, as some will be under warranty. One post on the PCGB forum reports six knackered 996 engines stacked outside one OPC - surely this represents a huge proportion of the total number of 996s on this OPC's books, and its a happening week in, week out.

I am taking legal advice and will make a decision based upon this, not my overwhelming sense of resentment about Porsche's shoddy treatment of me, and others.

I'm sorry to say it, but if you own a 996 (or Boxster by all accounts), all the evidence suggests that you are driving around in a time bomb. Just because you've got to 60k miles without the engine blowing up, don't think you've got 'one of the good ones' - mine went completely at 68k (looking back, it had been 'going' for some time). Either get yourself an Porsche warranty quick, or sell the car - its a liability, and Porsche will be only to happy to make more money out of you by denying responsibility and selling you a new engine at full whack (which is now 11.5k - the recent price increase is probably now subsidising the warranty replacements - how 'sharp' is that - no wonder they are the most profitable car company in the world).

Regretably, this will be my last Porsche; the dream has become a nighmare, and I will never forgive the brand for this. The company is trading on a reputation that it can no longer live up to; its selling a mass produced product at a premium price, and ripping off its customers in the process. Warranty or not, I had a right to expect that my car would last more than 68k miles and that it would not fail because the engine wasn't built properly. Its a shame, because i loved the car and I'm having a hard time deciding what to replace it with (once I've recovered from this financial hit), but Porsche will never see any of my hard-earned cash again.

Sell your M96 engined cars, or get a warranty today - they're a time bomb - take my word for it, its a mess when they go off and Porsche will do absolutely nothing to help you - profit is King!

Alison

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Maxy M
Barcelona


Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1411
Location: Great Britain

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alison, if I were you I'd go the Indie replacement/rebuild route and forget about legal action against Porsche. I'm no lawyer but I suspect it would be a very difficult case to prove, Porsche would field top lawyers, and if you lost you'd be paying out an absolute fortune in costs.

I get the impression that Porsche (both Gb and AG in Germany) are arrogant, uncaring, have no idea about customer service and are uninterested in customer loyalty - there will always be a queue of mug punters. You seem to be finding this out at first-hand.

I'm afraid that engine failure and RMS failure are two of the risks one takes on when buying a 996 (or Boxster or 997 even?). Once you get it fixed, though, you'll still have a car that's a great drive. But I can understand you wouldn't want to buy another Porsche.

I hope that you get some sort of reasonable result.


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