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Ticking noise to Rebuild time - worst 50 Miles ever.

DAVIDGT996 said:
bazhart said:
I'

The pictures you showed me yesterday David are original Lokasil cylinders but with support rings fitted – hence them being described as 'closed deck". They are NOT liners nor Nikasil plated. They don't look like our work either (well certainly not anything we've done for the last 15 years).

Hope that helps !

Grant
Thanks for this. I am a bit clearer now on what has failed now. which looks to be the original cylinders.

In all honesty, I'd seriously be guided by Hartech on options moving forward. They have probably the most resesrch and dxperience with rebuilding these engines. You can have the engine removed locally and couriered to Hartech or if you have the cover, have the car recovered to Hartech.
 
cheshire911 said:
DAVIDGT996 said:
In all honesty, I'd seriously be guided by Hartech on options moving forward. They have probably the most resesrch and dxperience with rebuilding these engines. You can have the engine removed locally and couriered to Hartech or if you have the cover, have the car recovered to Hartech.
The engine is already out and broken.One of the options I have been given is to send bank 2 to Hartech for sleeving/decking work.

As above I have already spoken to them for help/guidance. I am just doing my own research for better understanding on the inherent weaknesses of these engines and the solutions to address these currently on the market.

I am an Accountant with a few clients in motorsport industry but not specifically Porsches- they do Autocross & build sports cars for the Japanese marketplace.
 
Obviously money is always a factor in these things, but should it not be the defining factor on what you choose to do I'd do both banks at the same time.

The key weaknesses of these 3.4 engines are (in no particular order):

- Bores going oval/cracking
- Main bearings being significantly worn by ~100k (see also BMW's V8 and V10 for this problem)
- IMS bearing (although anecdotally these seem to either disintegrate by 40,000 miles or keep going)

And the tappet chest can crack, but that's very rare I think (under normal operating conditions), plus oil starvation (again, on track-hounds).

For the later 3.6 you can add bore-scoring to the above list.

You can tackle all of the first three during your rebuild, which I would hope would then mean many miles of routine oil and filter changes ahead of you.
 
^ so not having funds atm for a preemptive engine rebuild due to a house extension (and not wanting to spend £££ unnecessarily) would it be sensible to assume that:

1. Since my 2000 C2 is now on 110k+ with what what I believe to be an original IMSB that statistically it should be OK. (Seals will get flipped off if gearbox is removed)
2. I get an oil analysis every 6000m and monitor the Copper particles of which an increase should indicate main bearing wear, no increase so far and no metal particles in oil filter or magnetic sump plug.
3. It doesn't use any oil and has always performed well in the 5 years I have used it as my main car all year round and doesn't have any engine related fault codes relating to cam timing etc according to my OBD2 reader.

My plan is to keep it a long time and when the engine shows it's first problem requiring removal get all the weaknesses fixed then (unless it hits 200k without any issues first in which case it might get treated to a rebuilds anyway ) :thumbs:
 
I was following your steps 1,2,3. All going to plan. Oil analysis looking ok for copper content (9 parts per whatever it is, million?) with comment being "no significant wear"

2,500 miles later I'm seeing copper flakes in the oil filter and apparently just caught it before the crank was shagged.

#Just sayin'. It might be I buzzed the engine :dont know: I wasn't worried about working it hard.
 
...these are not Honda engines that will go on forever...they are sensitive and fragile things that have a fondness for melting...it's not true to report that IMS bearings past a particular mileage will be fine...mine collapsed at 69k....crank bearings are likely to be very worn according to reliable sources at 80k plus with the potential collateral crankshaft damage...Oh and they like to score their bores...when mine was stripped 5&6 were showing signs of this;not bad according to Hartech but evident nonetheless...

I say the following ,not prejoratively , but owners are deluding themselves if they believe otherwise hence my repeated advice to potential buyers would be ...buy one that has been treated to a thorough engine rebuild...unless you have £10 k (my rebuild ended up closer to £14k!) available should it be needed ?

They are relatively cheap to buy however they can have running costs aligned with their original £60k price tag...
 
Jamesx19 said:
I was following your steps 1,2,3. All going to plan. Oil analysis looking ok for copper content (9 parts per whatever it is, million?) with comment being "no significant wear"

2,500 miles later I'm seeing copper flakes in the oil filter and apparently just caught it before the crank was shagged.

#Just sayin'. It might be I buzzed the engine :dont know: I wasn't worried about working it hard.

Sounds like it could happen quickly at the mileage I'm at, no idea how much 'meat' I still have on my main bearings - 'do you feel lucky punk?"

A preemptive rebuild makes sense if you have the funds but I don't right now. I know it's going to be about 50-100% more expensive to rebuild if something breaks (or may even write the lump/car off) but if the crank is reusable and the bores aren't scored (they were good 30k ago when inspected) then I reckon it will cost about £7k to refresh and fix some of the main weaknesses.

I think I should increase the oil inspections to every 3000m from now on for peace of mind.
 
Hey 911munKy.

You could always just drop the oil filter and inspect, would be relatively cheap rather than dropping oil that's probably fine.

Might make you too paranoid to drive it like you want though!!

Best of luck with rebuild OP. Lots of choices on offer. The "everything" package might be only be best for a keeper. Otherwise maybe just fixing the broken bits could work for a more reasonable cost.
 
The fundamental problem with these cars is poor build quality. There is evidence every where you look. The gear shifter for example. Total crap.
Have a gander at the construction of the accelerator pedal...Again, total crap.
I chap I know has a 2000 year BMW 520. The difference in fit and finish compared with my C2 is night and day.
 
Comprehensive report on the 4 main failures now available

It must be really hard for owners to know what advice to believe and from whom. Especially new owners who have not been looking at Porsche forums for the past few years (that have contained a lot of information). As a result the same old questions keep re-emerging.

Some contributors provide good honest advice, some purposely mislead (for what they perceive as a personal business benefit), some promote an inferior product claiming no failures (when we see the opposite during rebuilds), and some just have not researched things well enough or from a professional enough background and jump to conclusions from a small number of rebuilds insufficient to draw reliable correlations from.

It is a minefield and so to try and help we have put together a report on the 4 main problems afflicting these engines. For anyone unfamiliar with our history, I would guess we have been involved in the highest number of rebuilds for the longest period and have professionally qualified and experienced engineering staff, a fully operational machine shop that manufactures parts and a superb record of Porsche racing Championships in different classes and events.

TECHNOPHOBE WARNING.

The problem for us is that whereas some of the issues were easy to identify, simple to solve and the results have proven the test of time, others are really very complicated, took a long time for us to understand and will take a lot of time, patience and some engineering knowledge to follow.

We have therefore put together this report into IMS Bearing failures, cylinder cracking, 'D" Chunking, Cylinder scoring and Gen 2 cylinder seizing (with a comment on less common problems including crankshaft regrinding at the end).

It includes descriptions of some basics needed to really understand the content, a short simplified version and a long detailed alternative, an index (at the end for those only with time to skip through it) and a bio of the writer (for those unsure who and what to believe).

To obtain a copy you need to contact Sharon at [email protected] from whom you will need to accept a confidentiality agreement before we send on our valuable intellectual property to help you.

We are not sure if this is the best way to help so constructive feed back will be gratefully received via direct E-mail to Sharon. Having spent hours writing it I will not be personally responding to arguments about it on this forum. For readers who found it helpful there may be future additions circulated if requested.

Baz
 
bazhart said:
I've taken pictures to help explain but can't easily upload them – I can email them to someone to upload if there are any volunteers, otherwise similar pictures can be found on our website www.hartech.org

The normal potential problems with the cylinder design are scoring/scuffing & cracking.

Scoring isn't as common in the 996 3.4 engine as the 3.6, 3.8 & 3.4 987 models but it can still happen, particularly with the Ferroprint pistons.

There are numerous contributory factors with scoring but the underlying issue is that the cylinder bore running face (Lokasil) isn't quite up to the job in many cases. This is why we choose to go with Nickel Ceramic plating (like in the Metzger engine) as a running surface which is much more durable – it is electro plated onto an aluminium alloy wet liner which shares the same expansion and contraction rates as the rest of the block so is nice and stable in both the deck height and integrity of fit rather than a different material with half the expansion and contraction rate.

Cylinder cracking is a totally different issue and comes about because the original design is essentially a tube of metal just surrounded by water without any support at the top. The thrust loading over the years pushes against one portion of the cylinder and it gradually goes oval and eventually cracks. Our new cylinders are a 'top hat" design so naturally stronger and are locked against the casting in a precision machined diameter - so cannot move so will not migrate oval and crack. The original design is an 'open deck" whereas the wedging of our liner against the other part of the block makes it more of a 'closed deck". (Incidentally, this isn't a classic problem with the smaller engines as the cylinder walls are thicker & stronger).

The 'closed deck" element of our liner can be re-produced by infilling the space with a support ring of metal.

The pictures you showed me yesterday David are original Lokasil cylinders but with support rings fitted – hence them being described as 'closed deck". They are NOT liners nor Nikasil plated. They don't look like our work either (well certainly not anything we've done for the last 15 years).

Going off tangent a little, there are 2 classic areas in these engines which will eventually lead to a failure through natural wear & tear/degradation – cylinders gradually migrating oval eventually cracking & crank shaft bearings wearing out. There's a pattern where both seem to start happening at similar mileages (90k-100k upwards). There are obviously lots of cases where engines last longer but there are also others which don't quite make it (we have 2 in at the moment – 1 at 75k and 1 at 80k).

Cylinder cracking isn't too much of a drama – a re-build is needed but the damage is isolated but crank shaft bearing failure is another story and a disaster. The crank & rod will usually be wrecked and potentially the carrier. The debris then usually spreads and will kill the oil pumps and, more often than not gets into the cylinders damaging pistons and potentially the bore surface material. In the very worst cases the rod breaks and the whole engine can be smashed and written off. Cranks, carriers etc are getting much harder to source & second hand values are creeping up.

Consequently, there's a very strong case for replacing the crank bearings as the mileage gets higher before they've failed, particularly if the owners plan is to keep the car for some time.

Hope that helps !

Grant
 
Whilst there's no harm in oil analysis there is a danger that too much reliance is put on it. If a crank bearing becomes so worn that the soft copper is exposed the rate of deterioration can be very quick. The situation could arise where the analysis is carried out just before the copper is exposed and then this soft metal quickly wears leading to a catastrophic failure.

We had an episode recently where an owner brought his 997 to us for a preventative re-build at around 120k miles. The bearings were down to the copper so he caught it just in-time but he had undertaken an oil analysis only a fortnight before and it was clear.

Grant
 
That question would be very hard (if not impossible) to answer and you will probably find my attempt at it unsatisfactory as a result. You would have to first strip engines every say what? - 5,000 miles - and rebuild them with the same shells until after years of repeating it you eventually found one that had just worn through to the copper and then accept the full cost of rebuilding it with those worn parts still in it to see how long it lasted until the crank failed - and then add the cost of a rebuild with new crank etc (hoping the failure didn't snap the rod and destroy the whole engine).

Even if we did all that (which I do not propose), we would quite rightly then still get questions about if it is a tip or manual, what time of year was it driven (and ambient conditions), how long were the journeys, which Country was it in and most important how it had been driven since rebuilding with the worn shells.

You can see that to quantify all that would be beyond the resources of anyone.

However what we can do is to use the history of failed engines and the mileages they failed at (and the type of failure) to analyse the results and form a general advisory.

All engines we strip have a several pages long report on all the internal parts (primarily used for subsequent customer contact but also it builds pictures and correlations) that help us generalise.

However generalisation can always be flawed since everyone drives differently and it can only be an overall guide.

What Grant's post reveals is that using an oil analysis will not necessarily protect you from a failure and therefore our general advice may be more useful than relying too much on that even though it will vary by owner, model, conditions etc.

So despite some engines lasting for high mileages, on average most would benefit from a pre-emptive rebuild before they blow up and therefore if the owners like them enough to plan to keep them - that may be a sensible consideration in the 80 to 100K area (although some will fail before that and some will last well beyond it).

Baz
 

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