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evodarren
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Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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Location: Southend on sea


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject: Sharkwerks 4.1 conversion 997.1 GT3 Reply with quote

I had thoughts of doing a Sharkwerks conversion. Originally they only did a 3.9 litre conversion but now do a 4.1 version. There is an article of the 4.1 version in Total 911 magazine. Good reviews 540hp and 400 lbs torque.
My GT3 is a car I love and would love to keep for a long period.
Just got a quotation for the work just under $57,000. I'm sure it will be an amazing car. My engine is still running sweet. Its a lot of Bucks for horsepower. Could buy a lot of driving tuition.
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FZP
Estoril


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Sharkwerks 4.1 conversion 997.1 GT3 Reply with quote

evodarren wrote:
Could buy a lot of driving tuition.

Yeah I've seen loads of guys throw money at cars hand over fist in the pursuit of speed, yet never wanted to believe that they were the weak link in the chain regarding that pursuit.
Don't get me wrong, if people want to mod their car, crack on. But I always struggle to listen to people talk about their mods for performance reasons and they've never invested in themselves.
Smart move Thumb
I've got a mate who is an awesome skier, the kind of guy who you'd think is an instructor, but without fail he gets lessons every year, high performance lessons albeit, but still gets lessons. I think the same applies to driving quickly on track
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Mitch911
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some great engine builders in the UK. You don't need to go to Sharkwerks...

Fearnsport and CTR spring to mind.
 
  
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NLW73
Albert Park


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 1549
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it would be a lot cheaper to lose weight I would say!!

both in the car and often over looked ....ourselves. I know I could do with shifting 6-10 KGs and that is worth a lot of BHP per tonne Wink

why not get the sound deadening out of the car or reduce? that crap weighs a lot and GT3s have less than cooking 911s.

maybe a carbon roof and polycarb rear window and side windows like the GT2RS?

changing the OEM wheels to OZ superlights or sth similar could save you 20-30 kgs all round

Carbon ceramics are also a great mod to do to save weight. maybe 5kg a corner.

the RS is about 20KGs lighter than the normal GT3 and that equates to quite a few seconds per lap at say Silverstone or 20 seconds at the ring.

200 or even 100 cell cats are not only lighter but they are a good weigh to add power too.

if your car weights 1400 KG with fluids then power to weight ratios (with 415 HP) is going to be 337 per tonne. if you took out say 100 KGs you are going to be pushing more like 37/380 per tonne which is worth another 75-100 BHP potentially?

taking out 100 KGs could probably be done for £10k (with the above mods) which is a lot less than a 4.1 conversion....

is your car a clubsport or comfort? if comfort then putting in some carbon bucket seats can save as much as 25-30 kg per seat as the comfort seats weigh loads.

if you have a cage and don't track it then take the cage out for road use as a cage can be 30-40 KGs in the car.

weight reduction is the key to not only a great drivers car.... but helps acceleration, braking, weight transfer, direction change and component wear too. I would go down that route first. it can be a lot lot cheaper than adding power and some quick gains to be made.
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
Posts: 15500
Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NLW73 wrote:
it would be a lot cheaper to lose weight I would say!!

both in the car and often over looked ....ourselves. I know I could do with shifting 6-10 KGs and that is worth a lot of BHP per tonne Wink

why not get the sound deadening out of the car or reduce? that crap weighs a lot and GT3s have less than cooking 911s.

maybe a carbon roof and polycarb rear window and side windows like the GT2RS?

changing the OEM wheels to OZ superlights or sth similar could save you 20-30 kgs all round

Carbon ceramics are also a great mod to do to save weight. maybe 5kg a corner.

the RS is about 20KGs lighter than the normal GT3 and that equates to quite a few seconds per lap at say Silverstone or 20 seconds at the ring.

200 or even 100 cell cats are not only lighter but they are a good weigh to add power too.

if your car weights 1400 KG with fluids then power to weight ratios (with 415 HP) is going to be 337 per tonne. if you took out say 100 KGs you are going to be pushing more like 37/380 per tonne which is worth another 75-100 BHP potentially?

taking out 100 KGs could probably be done for £10k (with the above mods) which is a lot less than a 4.1 conversion....

is your car a clubsport or comfort? if comfort then putting in some carbon bucket seats can save as much as 25-30 kg per seat as the comfort seats weigh loads.

if you have a cage and don't track it then take the cage out for road use as a cage can be 30-40 KGs in the car.

weight reduction is the key to not only a great drivers car.... but helps acceleration, braking, weight transfer, direction change and component wear too. I would go down that route first. it can be a lot lot cheaper than adding power and some quick gains to be made.



That is an excellent idea , but I am not going to get circumcised just to get another 50bhp Floor but I might consider getting racing stripes tattooed across my butt so it looks like I have gained 50bhp Floor Floor
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HSC911
Long Beach


Joined: 23 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
I am not going to get circumcised just to get another 50bhp


My thoughts exactly Agree




Grin
 
  
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evodarren
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Southend on sea


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know too much money. If my engine was knocked it maybe an option,but my engine is perfect.
I do have fully electric 18 way comfort seats and previously stated these probably weight 30 kg each.
Any recommendations for buckets seats , preferably leather and Alcantara
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Phil 997
Le Mans
Le Mans


Joined: 05 Dec 2015
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Location: Bournemouth,Dorset

2009 Porsche 997 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

evodarren wrote:
I know too much money. If my engine was knocked it maybe an option,but my engine is perfect.
I do have fully electric 18 way comfort seats and previously stated these probably weight 30 kg each.
Any recommendations for buckets seats , preferably leather and Alcantara


Darren , have you read Richard , ELAs thread on loosing weight from a 911 , if you haven't its well worth a read he had a project to drop 200kg from his

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=106137&highlight=
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Cunno
Indianapolis


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you get a price for the 3.9 kit it used to be $30k that's a big hike in price for the 4.1. There isn't that much extra required to make a 4.1 rsr style crank and longer con rods makes a 3.9 into a 4.1

Anyway yes lots of money if you do go this route the Bhp isn't what you notices, it's the extra torque the additional cc give you. Even the 3.8 makes a noticeable difference so a 4.1 I expect would be amazing. I believe you don't track your car so torque increase is what you would appreciate.

As mentioned above there are specialists in the U.K which can do similar, just need to decide whether you want to use porsche parts or aftermarket.

If your going to try and cut weight out of the car to achieve the same end result get the car on th scales before you start these things are heavier that you think. I'd say a comfort with half tank and driver is more like 1550kg, for every 100kg you take out the car you gain 20 Bhp per ton if I've got my man maths right.

Alternatively you could lower the gearing by fitting either the cup or 4.0 final drive. I was told by JZM that this is the equivalent of adding 40 bhp I'm not convinced in my mind it's more like 20 Bhp i.e. Puts a gen 1 in line with a gen 2 GT3( but I am a big boy so the extra weight makes a difference) If I was going to do this again I'd fit the longer 6th gear to maintain motor way cruising speeds without extra rpm about £6k all in.

Although my car isn't a 4.1 it's got a lot more than a standard 3.6 GT3 475bhp 350ft lbs. If you what to have a drive before you decide pm me and we can arrange a meet in the summer some time.
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evodarren
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Southend on sea


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cunno wrote:
Did you get a price for the 3.9 kit it used to be $30k that's a big hike in price for the 4.1. There isn't that much extra required to make a 4.1 rsr style crank and longer con rods makes a 3.9 into a 4.1

Anyway yes lots of money if you do go this route the Bhp isn't what you notices, it's the extra torque the additional cc give you. Even the 3.8 makes a noticeable difference so a 4.1 I expect would be amazing. I believe you don't track your car so torque increase is what you would appreciate.

As mentioned above there are specialists in the U.K which can do similar, just need to decide whether you want to use porsche parts or aftermarket.

If your going to try and cut weight out of the car to achieve the same end result get the car on th scales before you start these things are heavier that you think. I'd say a comfort with half tank and driver is more like 1550kg, for every 100kg you take out the car you gain 20 Bhp per ton if I've got my man maths right.

Alternatively you could lower the gearing by fitting either the cup or 4.0 final drive. I was told by JZM that this is the equivalent of adding 40 bhp I'm not convinced in my mind it's more like 20 Bhp i.e. Puts a gen 1 in line with a gen 2 GT3( but I am a big boy so the extra weight makes a difference) If I was going to do this again I'd fit the longer 6th gear to maintain motor way cruising speeds without extra rpm about £6k all in.

Although my car isn't a 4.1 it's got a lot more than a standard 3.6 GT3 475bhp 350ft lbs. If you what to have a drive before you decide pm me and we can arrange a meet in the summer some time.



Hi Jon love to meet up and have ago in yours. You were spot on with weight. Car was weighed at centre gravity full tank 18 way fully electric comfort seat weight 1488kg mine does have carbon brakes. Darren
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NLW73
Albert Park


Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 1549
Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually Darren that does not surprise me at 1488kg with full tank. I remember NXI telling me that his 996 GT3 was 1450 KG with a tank of fuel and he has LWT bucket seats. fuel is 1kg per litre so it soon adds up. i think the GT3 can hold about 65-70 litres in RHD. LHD have bigger 90L tanks.

does your car have a cage?

those electric seats are very heavy indeed and well worth changing to nucket seats. the gt3 has the very lightweight seats as carbon buckets and they would save a lot of weight.

I would still say you could save a lot of weight in areas like the wheels, the seats even the carbon roof option too and the rear polycarb window that the RS runs.

agreed with Phil that Richard's (ELA) thread on his 996 is well worth a read and very insprational. it was a standard 996 but now with a massive weight loss and some small engine mods it has same BHP per tonne as GT3

like any weight loss program you get some really easy and cheap gains but then it gets harder and harder to get more thought still an amazing jon richard has done.

I spoke to wayne scholfeld at Chip wizards about remaps with the lower cell cats and its marginal gains.

what about changing the diff ratios? I had a track BMW m3 36 kumho car that had a 3.9 diff and it felt like it was flying through the gears. would top out at about 135 but got there quick.
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Cunno
Indianapolis


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

evodarren wrote:
Cunno wrote:
Did you get a price for the 3.9 kit it used to be $30k that's a big hike in price for the 4.1. There isn't that much extra required to make a 4.1 rsr style crank and longer con rods makes a 3.9 into a 4.1

Anyway yes lots of money if you do go this route the Bhp isn't what you notices, it's the extra torque the additional cc give you. Even the 3.8 makes a noticeable difference so a 4.1 I expect would be amazing. I believe you don't track your car so torque increase is what you would appreciate.

As mentioned above there are specialists in the U.K which can do similar, just need to decide whether you want to use porsche parts or aftermarket.

If your going to try and cut weight out of the car to achieve the same end result get the car on th scales before you start these things are heavier that you think. I'd say a comfort with half tank and driver is more like 1550kg, for every 100kg you take out the car you gain 20 Bhp per ton if I've got my man maths right.

Alternatively you could lower the gearing by fitting either the cup or 4.0 final drive. I was told by JZM that this is the equivalent of adding 40 bhp I'm not convinced in my mind it's more like 20 Bhp i.e. Puts a gen 1 in line with a gen 2 GT3( but I am a big boy so the extra weight makes a difference) If I was going to do this again I'd fit the longer 6th gear to maintain motor way cruising speeds without extra rpm about £6k all in.

Although my car isn't a 4.1 it's got a lot more than a standard 3.6 GT3 475bhp 350ft lbs. If you what to have a drive before you decide pm me and we can arrange a meet in the summer some time.



Hi Jon love to meet up and have ago in yours. You were spot on with weight. Car was weighed at centre gravity full tank 18 way fully electric comfort seat weight 1488kg mine does have carbon brakes. Darren


Darren
No probs, car will come out of hibernation mid April so pm me nearer the time and we will make it happen Thumb
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StephanoM
Newbie


Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 34
Location: Bournemouth 997 GT3


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cunno wrote:

Although my car isn't a 4.1 it's got a lot more than a standard 3.6 GT3 475bhp 350ft lbs


What have you done to achieve 475 ?
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NLW73
Albert Park


Joined: 27 May 2014
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Location: Yateley


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some interesting threads here on weight reduction:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dyjcAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=removing+weight+from+porsche+997&source=bl&ots=fqEhESurU7&sig=bfHRvUTiXWqzyaAV2T1UPneF8ZI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjm8pX02eHfAhVPy6QKHdMJC_IQ6AEwE3oECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=removing%20weight%20from%20porsche%20997&f=false

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/423361-438-lbs-gone-5-days-my-build-story-3.html

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/220539-official-997-1tt-weight-loss-thread-7.html
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Cunno
Indianapolis


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cloud 9

It's a 3.8 conversion following the same outlines as the 3.9 Sharkwerks conversion but using Porsche parts hence the 3.8

3.8 piston and liners installed
3.8 con rods as porsche changed the pin sizes from 22mm to 23mm on the 3.8 pistons Mad
Modified cup cams to retain vario cam
Kline exhaust
Remap
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Slippydiff
Nürburgring


Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 406



PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: Sharkwerks 4.1 conversion 997.1 GT3 Reply with quote

evodarren wrote:
I had thoughts of doing a Sharkwerks conversion. Originally they only did a 3.9 litre conversion but now do a 4.1 version. There is an article of the 4.1 version in Total 911 magazine. Good reviews 540hp and 400 lbs torque.
My GT3 is a car I love and would love to keep for a long period.
Just got a quotation for the work just under $57,000. I'm sure it will be an amazing car. My engine is still running sweet. Its a lot of Bucks for horsepower. Could buy a lot of driving tuition.


My advice. Save your money, the mods you're suggesting won't improve the car to the tune of £45K.
But if you MUST do it, just go factory 4.0 RS/RSR crank, Mahle Motorsport 3.8 pistons and liners, a pair of Cup heads, some uprated cams from FVD and a 4.0 inlet manifold and a decent set of exhaust manifolds/cats exhaust system.

I'd respectfully suggest you DON'T use CTR developments as someone suggested.
 
  
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Cunno
Indianapolis


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Sharkwerks 4.1 conversion 997.1 GT3 Reply with quote

Slippydiff wrote:
evodarren wrote:
I had thoughts of doing a Sharkwerks conversion. Originally they only did a 3.9 litre conversion but now do a 4.1 version. There is an article of the 4.1 version in Total 911 magazine. Good reviews 540hp and 400 lbs torque.
My GT3 is a car I love and would love to keep for a long period.
Just got a quotation for the work just under $57,000. I'm sure it will be an amazing car. My engine is still running sweet. Its a lot of Bucks for horsepower. Could buy a lot of driving tuition.


My advice. Save your money, the mods you're suggesting won't improve the car to the tune of £45K.
But if you MUST do it, just go factory 4.0 RS/RSR crank, Mahle Motorsport 3.8 pistons and liners, a pair of Cup heads, some uprated cams from FVD and a 4.0 inlet manifold and a decent set of exhaust manifolds/cats exhaust system.

I'd respectfully suggest you DON'T use CTR developments as someone suggested.


That made me giggle that list of parts + installation must be pushing £40k as Porsche have hiked the part prices in the last 2 years?
H
How you getting on with your car?
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Porsche is for driving not for washing.
Present Car: 2006 3.6 Porsche GT3 997(White)
Ex: 2006 3.4 Porsche Cayman S (Silver)
Ex: 2001 2.7 Porsche Boxster (Seal Grey)
 
  
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Cunno
Indianapolis


Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Nottinghamshire


PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Sharkwerks 4.1 conversion 997.1 GT3 Reply with quote

Slippydiff wrote:
evodarren wrote:
I had thoughts of doing a Sharkwerks conversion. Originally they only did a 3.9 litre conversion but now do a 4.1 version. There is an article of the 4.1 version in Total 911 magazine. Good reviews 540hp and 400 lbs torque.
My GT3 is a car I love and would love to keep for a long period.
Just got a quotation for the work just under $57,000. I'm sure it will be an amazing car. My engine is still running sweet. Its a lot of Bucks for horsepower. Could buy a lot of driving tuition.


My advice. Save your money, the mods you're suggesting won't improve the car to the tune of £45K.
But if you MUST do it, just go factory 4.0 RS/RSR crank, Mahle Motorsport 3.8 pistons and liners, a pair of Cup heads, some uprated cams from FVD and a 4.0 inlet manifold and a decent set of exhaust manifolds/cats exhaust system.

I'd respectfully suggest you DON'T use CTR developments as someone suggested.


That made me giggle that list of parts + installation must be pushing £40k as Porsche have hiked the part prices in the last 2 years?
H
How you getting on with your car?
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Present Car: 2006 3.6 Porsche GT3 997(White)
Ex: 2006 3.4 Porsche Cayman S (Silver)
Ex: 2001 2.7 Porsche Boxster (Seal Grey)
 
  
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Diggermeister
Nürburgring


Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 467



PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having arrived in a 997 GT3, via a (mapped) 996 turbo, I really do get why people would want more torque. Granted, on track, the whole ethos of the GT3 is to keep the engine spinning at 4,000 rpm and above, but there are times, certain corners, where things just don't quite stack up.

All of a sudden a car(s) with a bigger or turbocharged engine, that you'd just overtaken suddenly out-drags you up the next straight, only to hold you up through every single corner thereafter. Life sucks, sometimes. Grin

If an engine needed 'work' then I'd tend to go down the bigger displacement route, but would be more minded to cut weight first.
 
  
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Slippydiff
Nürburgring


Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 406



PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Sharkwerks 4.1 conversion 997.1 GT3 Reply with quote

[quote="Cunno"]
Slippydiff wrote:
evodarren wrote:
I had thoughts of doing a Sharkwerks conversion. Originally they only did a 3.9 litre conversion but now do a 4.1 version. There is an article of the 4.1 version in Total 911 magazine. Good reviews 540hp and 400 lbs torque.
My GT3 is a car I love and would love to keep for a long period.
Just got a quotation for the work just under $57,000. I'm sure it will be an amazing car. My engine is still running sweet. Its a lot of Bucks for horsepower. Could buy a lot of driving tuition.


My advice. Save your money, the mods you're suggesting won't improve the car to the tune of £45K.
But if you MUST do it, just go factory 4.0 RS/RSR crank, Mahle Motorsport 3.8 pistons and liners, a pair of Cup heads, some uprated cams from FVD and a 4.0 inlet manifold and a decent set of exhaust manifolds/cats exhaust system.

I'd respectfully suggest you DON'T use CTR developments as someone suggested.


Cunno wrote:
That made me giggle that list of parts + installation must be pushing £40k as Porsche have hiked the part prices in the last 2 years?


Well I do like to amuse whenever possible J Grin

4.0 RS/RSRS crank fairly reasonable, shells and thrusts very lumpy.
Mahle 3.8 liners/pistons approx £5k
A decent set of Carillos run to about £3k
Cup heads £1800 for a pair of M/Sport
Cams ? Use the guys you used, or go Shrick, the latter will cost £7k
Exhaust ? A set of 997 Cup manifolds with some custom link pipes to a standard 997 GT3 centre box should do the trick for sensible money.


Cunno wrote:
How you getting on with your car?
PC

Recieved this whilst holidaying in Lz last Friday :



I think the new enlarged door mirrors will look great once painted and the glasses have been fitted Mr. Green
 
  
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