Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:57 am Post subject: The wing and the forum.
I have often pondered on what makes a great car.
Is it the engineering? The sound it makes? The steering feel? The way it makes you feel hooning around at 5 am on B roads?
I think its all of those things, but what binds all of those together and makes a truly great ownership experience is a good forum with good members.
There are many good members on here its too long of a list to mention them all. However a thank you is in order for DEMORT who came to my moment in need as he has done countless times before for others, offering sound mechanical advice and even even going out of his way to go above and beyond to help me.
What an absolute legend of a guy. A true enthusiast and a man with a genuine passion for Porsche.
Thanks Demort. Really appreciate all of your help.
............................
The wing.
I bought my cheery little C2S from member Jason last year, always with the intention to improve dynamics, and aerokit the car. The remit was simple.
I was less of a fan of the classic 911 shape instead in my mind I thought it kinda looked weird without a wing. A bit to Subtle, a bit too plain jane if you will.
Dynamics improved with Ohlins Coilovers, RSS engine mounts, New arms and bushings all around. Then Phill997 and the... Finn kind of swayed me into gearbox mounts, and the induction mod, then nearly swayed me into an IPD plenum but that's another story (a very dangerous combo those two maketh)
So whilst all this was going on, I managed to slowly gather the parts required for full Aerokit. However in addition to this:
Some very lightweight wheels. A Cup steering wheel and a Notorious CAE shifter.
Work life has been, and is super busy, so its taken a while for me to send everything off for paint, I have been aching to see everything on the car and often find myself trawling the internet for pictures and user experiences.
However Monday this week I dropped everything off to the painters and as I was leaving the house I glanced back and it hit me.
The lines of the rear are just so good, The curves, the details , its... its ... perfect?
perfect........ without a wing.
So now I dont know, do I keep this machine winged or wingless....
What do you guys think?
pzero General
Joined: 18 Jul 2010 Posts: 5519 Location: London
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:32 am Post subject:
OP, you are absolutely right about Demort.
His posts are there for everyone to see. But better than that, those posts remain where they are as a future reference to anyone seeking help on issues concerning their Porsche.
In the very great majority of cases one doesn't even need to ask the question as it's invariably been answered, explained and documented on here. The same can be said too for other very knowledgeable forum members when it comes to getting dirty hands. (Alex, Mr Corn, Infrasilver spring immediately to mind but there are others that make excellent technical contributions, GT4's brilliant explanatory posts will always be there to be used as needy reference guides) to all that know their stuff and are happy to reward the forum with their knowledge.
As for your second point, well, that's only one that you can decide surely.
My two p's worth? Do it, as you have already gone so far down the road to getting it done and you clearly wanted to do it. If you don't like it you can always revert. _________________ 991.1 Carrera GTS
The return of Marty Wild Kyalami
Joined: 04 Nov 2016 Posts: 1841
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:54 am Post subject:
After 2 years of ownership, I can’t say how many times I’ve received help from Demort. Even getting him out of bed at 7am on a Sunday!
Salt of the earth, above and beyond doesn’t cut it when talking about Iain.
Took my car to him for the major, 125 miles away, worth every metre for the level of service I received. _________________ Life's too short for cr4ppy cars, keep it German!
Boxster S 986.1
Cayman S 987.1 (gone but not forgotten)
Porschekit Österreich
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 965 Location: North East UK
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:02 am Post subject:
Demort......
Wing.......If it ain't broken....don't fix it......
I pride my ownership on having a totally unmolested 997.1 C4S, just as it came from the factory....albeit each to their own with mods....eh Phil? _________________ 997.1 C4S Meteor Grey Metalic
PGD Trainee
Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Posts: 97
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:36 am Post subject:
Well if you don't like it, we can do a swap? _________________ 997.1 C2S
You may affect behaviours at high speeds with only a partial aero kit fitted. I trust Porsche aero engineers. Don’t know if you could buy aero kit withou the rear spoiler.
Having done the CAT training at Milbrook, we demonstrated various effects at speed, compliance steer, engine steer 90+, and aero effects at 120+ They are real and noticeable.
Totally right about DeMort _________________ Manual 997.2 c2 :Basalt + gtechniq : H&S + Gundo
Thefinn Suzuka
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 Posts: 1112 Location: Essex
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:23 pm Post subject:
You are right there RXP as I think that we can all say that Demort has helped us all out at some point and he is a true legend of the forum!
For me i am a no wing guy personally, but i think that might be down to having a Cab which i don't think suit a wing at all, even though Phil nearly talked me into buy the one his mate has for sale! The coupe's do suit them a lot more and if i and a coupe i would probably add one but again as other have said it really is down to personal taste of yes / no and which type you like. But seeing as you already have it and its at the painters you might as well fit it and see what you think, if not just go back as i am sure there will be plenty of members who will take it off your hands especially with new paint.
BTW have you seen this, you never know you might get a bargain!
I 100% agree about Iain(deMort) he has helped many of us in his own time and is a true asset to this forum. as are many guys whose contributions make this forum so active compared to others.
TheFinn I am glad is taking over the role of guy who gets stick for spending everyones money on mods
and whether we like mods or like our cars unmolested they are all beautiful cars and all the different views are what make this forum interesting .
now that Wing , as you know I LIKE a mod or two and encourage people to add a bit of their own personallity to their cars. BUT as much as I like the aero wing I am worried about you doing it without adding the AERO/GT3 front bumper and lip , at minimum you need to think about some form of lower front lip if you want to keep the aerodynamics right,
If your only going to be using the car at legal speed limits and the wing is a more visual enhancement than functional then you may get away with it but it wont be ideal and I really do suggest that you budget to do the front bumper and lip as well in the near future ( yes I realise I may have just talked you into spending more money ) Personally I love the more aggressive look of an aerokitted car but understand others prefer the smoother lines of the car without a kit. the good news is the wing is the more expensive part of the aero kit and you already have that. and its not money thrown away as when you change the car you put it back to stock and sell the aerokit and get most if not all your money back. now wheres the pic of your new alloys
It was some of the characteristics of the 911 covered by Colin Hoad on the high speed bowl at Milbrook.
Based on factory spec car:
He described compliance steering as Basically the natural frequencies/harmonics/tolerance stacks in the suspension components causing the car to track a little without any steering inputs. Happens at 90+.
Engine steer was described as the engine moving around on the mounts at 110+, again causing small directional changes.
The learning point was not to try and compensate with steering input, as it will invariably lead to overcompensating, worst case would result in a tank slapper.
Over 120 is when the aero starts to kick in and the car hunkers down (on the Milbrook bowl at least).
My point relevant to the OP is that the air ducts in the front PU are not only designed for brake cooling but also for aero and to work in harmony with the aero at the rear of the car.
If driving in excess of uk road speed limit I would be cautious about using aero kit not as per design intent. If the aerokit was available from the factory without the rear wing, then crack on and choose with or without as you please.
I’m assuming the aero kit actually has some aero effect and is not purely cosmetic.
Joined: 20 Feb 2012 Posts: 1507 Location: Leeds West Yorkshire
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:01 pm Post subject:
Agree what a great forum it really adds to the value of ownership as does a good Indy! We should never take for granted the help Demont gives us
I’ve never been a fan of big wings omo I think the wing on the turbo is perfect just enough enjoy your car and the forum some photo would be nice _________________ 1996 944
1998 968
2000 996 C2
2006 997 4S
2009 997 1.5 Turbo basalt black on black
MaxA Albert Park
Joined: 11 Oct 2015 Posts: 1671 Location: Helsinki
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:41 am Post subject:
I too love the forum, and the contributions from deMort are especially helpful. I should be asking him why I have front end wobble under braking, but I'd feel a berk until I at least try to sort it myself: I should probably try to remove/reinstall the 12mm spacers to see if that's the issue. This car does seem susceptible to wheel wobble for some reason, despite annual alignments and so on.
As to the wing, I'd only want the full aero for balance in extremis, not just one end or the other. You can run a ducktail (which is of course a spoiler) on a Carrera, but personally I think that the wings truly belong on Turbos and GTs, and that they just don't 'work' on Carreras. But if it makes you happy, then by all means, go ahead, as I've no issue with modifications at all. _________________ 997.2 Carrera4S: white over blue, driven and tracked, seldom clean.
PGD Trainee
Joined: 18 Jul 2018 Posts: 97
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:19 am Post subject:
MaxA wrote:
I should be asking him why I have front end wobble under braking, but I'd feel a berk until I at least try to sort it myself: I should probably try to remove/reinstall the 12mm spacers to see if that's the issue.
That's usually a warped brake disc _________________ 997.1 C2S
MaxA Albert Park
Joined: 11 Oct 2015 Posts: 1671 Location: Helsinki
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:56 am Post subject:
PGD wrote:
MaxA wrote:
I should be asking him why I have front end wobble under braking, but I'd feel a berk until I at least try to sort it myself: I should probably try to remove/reinstall the 12mm spacers to see if that's the issue.
That's usually a warped brake disc
Agreed, that would seem to be the obvious suspect. But the discs and pads are fairly new with little wear, and I haven't driven that hard (it's been pretty wet since the end of the summer). I'm having it checked tomorrow. _________________ 997.2 Carrera4S: white over blue, driven and tracked, seldom clean.
Phil 997 Le Mans
Joined: 05 Dec 2015 Posts: 15570 Location: Bournemouth,Dorset
Max is the 12mm spacer hubcentric , also what disks did you use the reason I ask is that I was persuaded to use an unknown brand of Disks and when fitted I had terrible wheel wobble so removed them and returned them brought pagid fitted them and job done no wobble again a symptom of using nasty made in the Far East rubbish , I am realising that the Far east is very good at making things that look right straight rip off replicas, but do no R&D or Quality control just copy but use inferior materials or less precise machining as the focus is purely on cheap build cost and as such they just dont do the job. _________________ 911 Owners,Some Invest In The Future,
Others Enjoy The Moment Today.
MaxA Albert Park
Joined: 11 Oct 2015 Posts: 1671 Location: Helsinki
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject:
Phil 997 wrote:
Max is the 12mm spacer hubcentric , also what disks did you use the reason I ask is that I was persuaded to use an unknown brand of Disks and when fitted I had terrible wheel wobble so removed them and returned them brought pagid fitted them and job done no wobble again a symptom of using nasty made in the Far East rubbish , I am realising that the Far east is very good at making things that look right straight rip off replicas, but do no R&D or Quality control just copy but use inferior materials or less precise machining as the focus is purely on cheap build cost and as such they just dont do the job.
Phil, I have proper TPI 12mm hubcentric magnesium alloy spacers all round, but it's possible that I have dirty hubs or some such, so I'll remove them and try running without to eliminate them as an issue.
I also have Brembo discs: although I might not fit actual Porsche boxed parts, I'll certainly use OEMs like Brembo. The wheel wobble is pretty new, so I'm not sure what's going on. They didn't wobble at the track, and I wasn't being hard on the brakes, as it was pretty wet out there (see above pictures from Alastaro). Maybe there's an issue with the tyre, maybe it's flat spotted, I don't know yet. It's holding pressure. Maybe I've damaged a rim, or put the tracking out (there are plenty of bumps and potholes around here).
Anyway, tomorrow morning I'm at my indy, so we'll pull everything off and have a look around in the light and warmth of a proper garage. _________________ 997.2 Carrera4S: white over blue, driven and tracked, seldom clean.
deMort Dijon
Joined: 21 Mar 2015 Posts: 7589 Location: Brighton
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject:
@ MaxA
I have nothing to add that hasnt already beed covered.
Actually i tell a lie.. ill add if a car is parked up with wet discs the pads will corrode onto them .. this can cause a high spot which will give brake judder.
New or old discs .. it can happen.
If you ever get a bang from the brakes when driving off then this has happened .
Its also important to clean the hub well as mentioned as this can cause brake judder . _________________ .
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