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beezo
Newbie


Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 15
Location: Nantwich


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Squelch...
I understand your pessimistic view, however it’s Fact that the whole garage was auctioned off via a local salvage agent. Some of the cars had minor scorch marks and others just smoke damage.
In the collection of 20 or so cars were GT3’s GT4’s litterally as new, I sat in one and drove it. It had been cleaned, valeted and detailed. They reached well in excess of £100k! Not my cup of tea, however the 993 struck a cord and was purchased by a collector who outbid me... The collection has since been sold on as the chap has a new business venture, hence how I have come by the car.
I saw the car when it arrived from the Porsche garage and have photos of the smoke on the outside.
I can’t explain how the assessor came to the conclusion, all’s I can say is what I saw with my own eyes and the facts surrounding it. Not that I have to explain myself....

And C. Thanks for the link, I appreciate the feedback
Cheers

Last edited by beezo on Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12594
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) If it's so low mileage, given its 'status' I'd be tempted to just drive the thing and enjoy it. Putting on miles won't make a great deal of difference unless you use it as taxi. Thumb

2) Hand You have highlighted the classic 'issue' with 1-owner cars that have been owned for many years. After a while you see the annual servicing/fettling begin to taper off rather than pay the expense of an annual service when only very low miles have been covered. I'd question why take it for an MOT every year if it hasn't been used for several years? Why not throw in the annual service at the same time to meet manufacturers spec? My Colini stick would be quivering like a diving rod on heat if I inspected it as these cars are easy to clock what Mechanicals might be sound but it's still a 22yr old car so the rubbers could be drier than an Egyptian builders flip flop and leathers/vinyls give off the aura of an octogenerian's ball sac nooo

3) I recently had my 4C serviced and the service manager didn't blink at the low mileage. "It's not the lowest. Chap has a 2015 Launch and brings it every year on a trailer for a service. It's now covered 75 miles" Surprised He didn't mention whether it was still on its onyx plinth Grin

Points (2) & (3) might be bolloxs to most so stick at point (1)

As you're quite local why not bring it down to the Cheshire meet 6 Oct. http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=129936 Rumour has it I'm making an appearance

Thumb
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Alfa Romeo’s 4C is everything a Italian sports-car should be: it’s gorgeous to the point of pornography, distinctive enough that nobody will ever mistake it for a Porsche, handles like it’s on rails and steers like a kart.
 
  
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jonttt
Zolder


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 5121
Location: Liverpool

2014 Porsche Boxster 981

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought there was a good reason why the cars that where “simply’ smoked damaged where written off in the Bolton OPC fire Wink

Ie the smoke was excessive and is likely to cause much more fundamental damage than first appearances ie a “wash and polish” would not mitigate the likely real damage caused by the smoke over time eg....

http://www.er-emergency.com/technical-bulletin-effects-of-smoke-corrosion-to-equipment-and-electronics

I’ve seen this before with estate M&E equipment which on first appearance was salvageable after a large fire but is condemned due to the likelihood of electrical failure over time due to the real affects (not cosmetic) of the by products of fire gases.

I remember it being commented on at the time somewhere on the internet that people where warned to not take the Bolton cars on face value as “bargain” / “only cosmetic damage” insurance write offs. Insurance companies are not stupid and if they could without risk have simply “cleaned” the cars and not written then off I’m sure they would have taken that option.

By way of example of know first hand that a number of years ago following a very heavy hailstorm in Leicester which panel damaged 50+ cars at a large car dealership their insurance paid for each panel to be “corrected” at great expense as it was cheaper than writing off each car. They commissioned a good friend of mine to photograph the before and after pics of each car. Its just an example of how much trouble they will go to NOT to write a car off. That’s totally at odds with writing off millions of £ worth of cars that just need a “polish”, it simply does not make sense.

Personally these cars carry a higher “unknown” risk than one that had been crash damaged with a documented repair and therefore are worth less not more ie they have not actually been “repaired” at all and the insurance companies assessed the risk of electrical failure / metal / other fatigue to be too great Dont know
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge" Einstein
#lastoftheaircooled
1997 Porsche 911 993 C4S My Journal
2014 Porsche Boxster GTS My Journal
2017 BMW 740 Msport
2017 RR Evoque Autobiography

Last edited by jonttt on Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12594
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that view with your rose tinted goggles on or off Dont know

Either way caveat emptor and quite right insurers may bend you over but they won't miss making top dough - regretably at the owners expense Bandit
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Alfa Romeo’s 4C is everything a Italian sports-car should be: it’s gorgeous to the point of pornography, distinctive enough that nobody will ever mistake it for a Porsche, handles like it’s on rails and steers like a kart.
 
  
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jonttt
Zolder


Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 5121
Location: Liverpool

2014 Porsche Boxster 981

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m just trying to be logical, simply does not make sense that so many cars which just required a good clean and are then as good as new where written off Wink
_________________
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" Einstein
#lastoftheaircooled
1997 Porsche 911 993 C4S My Journal
2014 Porsche Boxster GTS My Journal
2017 BMW 740 Msport
2017 RR Evoque Autobiography
 
  
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12594
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonttt wrote:
I’m just trying to be logical, simply does not make sense that so many cars which just required a good clean and are then as good as new where written off Wink


I find this hard to swallow but for once I agree with you chum Embarassed
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Alfa Romeo’s 4C is everything a Italian sports-car should be: it’s gorgeous to the point of pornography, distinctive enough that nobody will ever mistake it for a Porsche, handles like it’s on rails and steers like a kart.
 
  
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beezo
Newbie


Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 15
Location: Nantwich


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I saw the link and completelely understand being an Engineer.
It would also depend on the depth of the smoke damage and coverage.
Logical or not, If i was a customer and my car had been smoke damaged then I would want it replacing 100% too! They could have cleaned them, but as you say I am sure that the customers would not have been happy, hence why its often the case that the insurance pays out.

I have gone over this car and I can see that there are no adverse issues, all the electrics are clean and as they should be. There are no marks in the bodywork and under the hood and bonnet it’s clean as you would imagine to be.

People will have their opinions, I completely understand that.
I posted on the forum for advise on potentially selling the car, now it would appear that the car is being scrutinised. It is what it is, I have a keen eye for detail, have been around the motor industry a long time and therefore have my own opinion of the car. I appreciate all the feeedback and have taken the positive, negative and constructive on board. At the end of the day it’s still a stunning 993, and one that I would be proud of showing off, regardless of its past.

My friend has a 997 turbo, it was stolen and then recovered a few weeks later. He purchased it back from the insurance company, it’s now a Cat D. Still a beast and stunning car and gets plenty of attention at shows.
 
  
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Kingb4
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 20 Jan 2018
Posts: 279
Location: Beds/Bucks


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beezo - I think you attitude is a credit to you.....many come onto forums and then attempt to enforce their view. I wish you luck with the sale.

I think if you price it right (clearly cheaper than any non-cat car), am sure you will eventually find a buyer. I think it may take some time:
1) There arent lots of 993 buyers out there, to start with
2) The premium car market seems to be slowing generally
3) 993 buyers may be very particular (based on what others have said) - in which case a CAT car may not appeal to them

Jonttt - your post on smoke damage was really interesting, it would certainly make me think twice about a smoke-damaged car, as the effects may not manifest themselves for some time.[/list]
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tyinsky
Nürburgring


Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 497
Location: London, UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2S

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beezo wrote:
I posted on the forum for advise on potentially selling the car...


There is a 991 GT3 for sale at the moment that was in the same lock up. Maybe keep an eye on how long it takes to sell/ask the garage for an opinion on the value once it sells?

https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/porsche/911-gt3-991/porsche-911-991-gt3-pdk-clubsport-bucket-seats-cage-64-reg/8949392

Only looks to be 10% less than a car without the marker on it? If it sells for close to this then perhaps a sign that potential buyers perceive smoke damage preferable to an accident/panels/paintwork.

I did take an interest in these cars when they were first listed at auction as there looked to be some bargains if intending to keep/use the car. I lost interest when people on PH were talking about heat damage and the potential for trouble in the loom – which may or may not have been forum nonsense. Being able to buy one outside of an auction poses a different risk as someone can inspect more closely and test the car.

From the picture you have posted it certainly looks a hardly used car.

Before I bought my car, I was talking to someone who had a Cat D (same as an N now?) low-ish (50,000) mileage C4S. In the end I was put off by it, mostly because like many cars on the register everyone seems to have a story that it was "just a front wing" that needed replacing but they never seem to have any photographs of the damage or receipts for the repair making it impossible to verify. And when I checked the register I discovered it had been written off twice, with one apparently being a stolen recovered incident! However, it did sell reasonably quickly from memory and much to my surprise. £mid forties I think, possibly low fifties (hard to remember exactly). Two years ago so prices broadly similar to today with a straight car of that mileage being £80k back then.

At least you know the full story on your car. Lovely thing to keep. If you decide to sell best of luck getting the money you are after. thumbsup
 
  
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stichill99
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 308
Location: Scottish Borders


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Smoke damage Reply with quote

When I was looking for a 993 5 years ago I had the chance to buy a local Carrera 4 which had a slight rumble over a dyke(Stone wall not the other kind).Just needed a sill and a wing and only a few light dimples on the front boot floor.
I went to the North East Porsche show which specialist cars of Malton were at and I asked there opinion of cat d car. He was quite sure that if I bought it to never come to him to trade it in as he wouldn't touch it with a barge pole and there in lies the trouble.
It looks a lovely car but for all it's low mileage it's the stigma of cat N which it has. There are loads of cars out there without it so why would you bother unless it was very very cheap!
 
  
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beezo
Newbie


Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 15
Location: Nantwich


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tyinsky,

Will keep an eye on it. Thanks for the heads up.

I also have a Cat D 993, I knew the guy who owned the car. He was caught in a flash flood 10 years ago. The water came over the sills and the engine would not start. The main ECU was damaged. I stripped the car, replaced the damaged parts and it has been serviced and maintained by unit 11 ever since. I have had no issues with it and it’s never missed a beat.
Yes there is a stigma to it for some people but it’s my pride and joy, no one would know unless you told them! It’s been garaged all it’s life and well pampered.

I have seen some right pigs down the years at shows that have been accident repaired and hpi clear, obviously not repaired well!! I have also seen some horrendous restorations too... but each to their own.

The car is going into Porsche for a full service etc... be interesting to see what their feedback is...

Cheers and thanks again for the post 👍🏽
 
  
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beezo
Newbie


Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 15
Location: Nantwich


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Stichill99,

Yes I get the stigma...
Interestingly, you will find that these so called specialists and garages call them for what they are etc... but they would still buy them off you, bid you a ridiculous low price and then give them a spit and polish and expect fortunes for them... most would sell their own parents! I agree, that most cat D cars have been in some serious accident, however some have not.

I have a close friend who works in a well known body shop, he has repaired some cars that you would never think possible! It’s amazing what a jig will do, and I suppose that would be ok. Cat N and D are not always down to the car, but also the circumstances and availability of parts etc... hence why they state, the insurer decided not to repair.

As you say, they are what they are, it is what it is... we have established those facts!
👍🏽
 
  
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12594
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have a Cat D (N or S) for the right money Cool
_________________
Alfa Romeo’s 4C is everything a Italian sports-car should be: it’s gorgeous to the point of pornography, distinctive enough that nobody will ever mistake it for a Porsche, handles like it’s on rails and steers like a kart.
 
  
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beezo
Newbie


Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 15
Location: Nantwich


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy
 
  
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ColinC
Österreich


Joined: 16 May 2013
Posts: 991
Location: Sunny Central Scotland


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zingari wrote:
I'd have a Cat D (N or S) for the right money Cool


25 bags Dont know
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94 993 C2 - Black with Marble Grey Leather
 
  
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12594
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColinC wrote:
Zingari wrote:
I'd have a Cat D (N or S) for the right money Cool


25 bags Dont know


Hand Subject to Colini stick results.

I'm waiting for Sponge to sell me that iPhone Red for £250 to warm me up Grin
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