M96 Porsche factory short engines, price reduction

Dammit · 15 Sep 2018

But because of the engines fearsome rep for going poom if you look at it funny the 996 is dirt cheap, so - swings and roundabouts.

GMG · 16 Sep 2018

...this is true; however this is also a potential heart,wallet and dream breaker!

You might be able to afford to buy one but can you afford to cope with the bill should the worst happen? And you need to be able to...ideally.

The fundamental issue as I see it is...you can't predict the fail,nor mitigate against it; changing the ims in situ is viewed as potentially problematic, bore scoring can occur quickly and without warning...both leading to major cost to rectify...

So my advice to any potential purchaser for what it's worth is; the 996 is a fantastic thing to drive,look at and own;it's relatively affordable BUT just ensure that you have the means to run it...and fix it...

Counter Of Beans · 16 Sep 2018

And there you have it folks; the opposing views on M96 (and M97?) engines.

The GMG view - quite understandable given your experience - is essentially that they're all made of self-detonating cheese, and even the high mileage ones are knackered. That £10k plus bill is a "when", not an "if".

Or the Wasz view, namely that it's an overstated problem, and even if you are unlucky and suffer engine failure, the lower initial purchase price compensates for the subsequent (and unlikely) cost to fix.

I simplify to save time, but I have no idea who's right! Where's the data?

Back on topic, you'd be crazy to fit another flawed Porsche engine when, for similar money, the likes of Hartech can rebuild it so it won't fail again.

wasz · 16 Sep 2018

Lol, its easy to find broken examples of any 20 year old engine with 100k+ on it. Porsche owners think they are buying something special so are outraged when they fail.

A big reason these are expensive to rebuild is because the industry wants you to think these are somehow special, they aren't, they are an engine and can be rebuilt in your shed.

peterzoom · 16 Sep 2018

bazhart said:
peterzoom - If you watch one of our 2 videos about engine rebuilding on our web site you will find the whole thing from driving in to driving out in even less time (tongue in cheek of course). www.hartech.org

Baz

Thanks Baz, your videos are fantastic, every bit as good as the dragster rebuild, something quite mesmeric about watching the slick process and the smooth skills shown. Its one of those things that I find myself watching and wishing I possessed even a fraction of the ability on show
:thumb:

MisterCorn · 16 Sep 2018

They aren't particularly difficult to rebuild, but the parts you need to buy when doing even a basic rebuild are pretty steep. From what I have read and seen myself any M96 on 100k+ is on borrowed time with regards to shells. Not unique to Porsche but still going to cost a fair bit to sort out.

MC

GMG · 16 Sep 2018

...indeed; any engine north of 80ish k miles if it hasn't required a rebuild probably will (or will be close to needing one)owing to wear on the bearing shells,valve guides etc...I think Hartech have been pretty unequivocal about these issues in reference to their experiences...

My own experience hasn't left me bitter just frustrated and significantly out of pocket; the advice generally available simply and naively prefers to play down the issues concerning these engines ; I suspect/ quite possibly because doing so makes owners feel better about their own cars!?

If I were buying again and didn't have at least £10k sat with nothing better to do; I would not buy anything 996/997 that hadn't benefited from a significant engine rebuild;if I couldn't afford a rebuilt one (and desperately wanted a 911) and didn't have a chunk of spare cash I would not buy anything with over 70k miles....

wasz · 16 Sep 2018

The thing is, a 996 and its engine are unique. Thats why the engine parts are costly.

What period competitors are there?.... an m3 maybe? But thats a saloon car with an incrementally better version of it's engine. A big merc coupe that looks like every other merc and has an incrementally better engine? hmmm.

Theres nothing.

So 996+ a rainy day fund (stick that £10k in a global equity tracker, you might not need it), or be prepared to rebuild yourself.

My car cost me what rollers go for now, so if it went pop I would either flog as is or rebuild myself if I have the time.

I could have bought a new VW Golf 1.2TSI and lost more than £10k in depreciation in the time I've had it.

Its been a cheap car, and still will be if it goes pop.

paul987 · 16 Sep 2018

wasz said:
The thing is, a 996 and its engine are unique. Thats why the engine parts are costly.

What period competitors are there?.... an m3 maybe? But thats a saloon car with an incrementally better version of it's engine. A big merc coupe that looks like every other merc and has an incrementally better engine? hmmm.

Theres nothing.

So 996+ a rainy day fund (stick that £10k in a global equity tracker, you might not need it), or be prepared to rebuild yourself.

My car cost me what rollers go for now, so if it went pop I would either flog as is or rebuild myself if I have the time.

I could have bought a new VW Golf 1.2TSI and lost more than £10k in depreciation in the time I've had it.

Its been a cheap car, and still will be if it goes pop.

I agree.

There's nothing in the same league for the money.

On the new short block engine prices... I do know that Porsche are very proud of 60% of Porsche"s made are still on the road....I suspect the price reductions are to encourage owners to rebuild them rather than scrapping them :dont know:

911munKy · 17 Sep 2018

Hi GMG, have you posted your experience in Alex's IMS bearing sticky as I had a quick look and didn't see a post? Data is needed to give an accurate snapshot on this issue since you are one of a handful on this forum that has experienced this catastrophic issue.
Thanks.

GMG · 17 Sep 2018

...I haven't because I am inclined to believe that a crude data grab such as this does not provide a clear and accurate reflection of the real world failures...

Hartech have a business based upon rebuilding broken engines,every specialist that I contacted had several engines waiting for a rebuild because they had broken...the engineering company that rebuilt my heads and block are doing tons of them etc,etc...

What owners,forum members and prospective owners want to read is that only a few break which is demonstrably inaccurate...flip over to the 997 forum and there are 3 owners with broken engines for example...

I am not a scare monger simply want to represent the issue / potential issues to prospective new owners...

A very well respected specialist advised me 'not to worry,to stop scaring myself with internet stories of failures' when I spoke with them to discuss preventive work...shortly after this my engine shat itself !

This kind of vindicates my view that there is a desire to downplay the actual problems that can manifest without warning...

Wh1t3Kn1ght · 17 Sep 2018

Everything has to be taken in context though right? There are thousands of 996s / 986s out there as they were produced in much higher numbers than previous generations and statistically you are going to see a larger number of car experiencing various problems including engine failures. Ditto as there are such a large number of these cars and the low prices that they have historically changed hands for there are a large number of ropey cars out there that perhaps haven't been very well looked after, skipping a service here and there, incorrect oil used during a change etc.

I've owned various 944s over the last 15 or so years and everyone always likes to point out the potential issues with waterpump and cam / balance belt failure which generates a lot of income for waterpump re-manufacturers as a large number of people change the pump / tensioners every other belt change.

If I had to carry an extra £10k around with me in case of a potential engine failure I don't think I'd ever buy a 996.

Still considering buying one even with all the horror stories :grin:

Also I think you hit the nail on the head - there are a large number of specialist who make a living on engine rebuilds and I'd wonder how many are preventative rebuilds versus complete engine failure.

GMG · 17 Sep 2018

...mitigate the risk and buy one that has had its engine sorted and jobs a good un...

Bluebird911 · 17 Sep 2018

There are some confused arguments circling now which is distorting the issue.

The 996 engine is the first of a generation of new engines that Porsche produced with inherent weakneses. IMS bearing failure and borescoring IS A HUGE RISK of a costly failure which cannot be ignored like those who have yet to experience it portray it. The 996 is a cheap sports car when you consider its performance, it is cheap because the market has 'priced in' this major potential failure. Compared to other marques, failure of waterpumps, camshafts etc etc, these are minor and relatively inexpensive to repair compared to having to break open a 996 engine.

If you buy with your eyes open, and put away £10K Insurance, you should enjoy the ownership of a 996. As others have said, there is nothing special about a 996. They are an interesting car because of its engine location with a unique layout of its cylinders. I bought to experience this and was impressed with its driving characteristics to have kept it for 10 years, but now ready for a change.

I find the 996 like most German cars, a bit soulless and characterless, compared to say the equivalent Italian cars, but they are at higher price point. Perhaps another reason, along with the large relative numbers, that 996s are cost effective.

Wasz I think said that there is nothing to compare pricewise to a 996. I have a friend who has an M6 V10 - 507bhp for £14K! People are frightened by the complexity of the F1 influenced engine, but hell is it fast and makes a great sound!

In terms of 'building your own engines in a shed' and there are a few I admire on this forum who do this, but is only a realistic option for a tiny proportion of people, to the point of 'is it relevant' to the predicament of an engine failure like GMG had? I can strip and rebuild MG and mini engines with basic tools, and often do, but a 996 engine??? Phew!

Finally, I do not consider the rebuild costs from Hartech and other respected indies to be charging particularly high prices. It is the nature of the failure and the damage caused that determines the price. I think they are reasonable for the work that gets carried out, and GMG now has what I suspect most of us crave for, a 996 with an engine with repaired parts, presumably replaced bearing shells etc etc, that future proof this engine for a reliable 100k miles motoring!!

It is good to see replacement short engines are available if the worst happens.

GMG · 17 Sep 2018

...nicely put.

Once opened up and subjected to close scrutiny my engine despite being given an 8.5 out of 10 by the specialist required an extensive and expensive list of replacement parts which being Porsche are all hugely expensive!

Which leads me to conclude that despite what other forum members report about their engines being strong and issue free....if they were opened up especially those with more than about 70k on them would be horrified/surprised by how worn they actually are...

So for the OP and other potential buyers...My rebuild cost is north of £15k thus close to the purchase price of the car. Mine was a 70k miles ,two owner, full Porsche history car! And now for sale at £23500 ! As my love has died and I shall put my money into something else ...an interesting old classic perhaps?

M96 Porsche factory short engines, price reduction

Dammit

Paul Ricard

GMG

Suzuka

Counter Of Beans

Hockenheim

wasz

Paul Ricard

peterzoom

Spa-Francorchamps

MisterCorn

Fuji

GMG

Suzuka

wasz

Paul Ricard

paul987

Mexico City

911munKy

Imola

GMG

Suzuka

Wh1t3Kn1ght

Montreal

GMG

Suzuka

Bluebird911

Montreal

GMG

Suzuka

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