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Metal flakes in oil filter
- Thread starter Armagreggon85
- Start date
Hartech seem to be the go to guys. Not only do they seem have the solutions in terms upgraded liners and larger IMS they have the reputation which goes a long way if you ever sell the car. Cars with Hartech engines always seem to attract a premium.
asterix_the_gaul
Barcelona
- Joined
- 20 Dec 2008
- Messages
- 1,315
Hartech will only do the 3.7 on cars they put the engine back into and get running and mapped properly to the new specs.
They will do a standard rebuild by post as there is nothing you are essentially changing to the oem running characteristics
They will do a standard rebuild by post as there is nothing you are essentially changing to the oem running characteristics
Armagreggon85
Silverstone
- Joined
- 4 Jan 2017
- Messages
- 104
Update
So I've finally got some news to update you all on.
A few weeks ago I dropped the engine, stripped all the ancillaries off and delivered it to Hartech for investigation. Last week I got the call from Grant.
And the results are...... IMS bearing was failing. Apparently when this happens usually all of the debris that is dragged through the engine causes lots of damage to various components however it seems I have been very lucky and Grant has informed me that there was no damage whatsoever from the failing IMS. Which is kind of a result.
It's still not going to be cheap since the engine will still need to be rebuilt and now there are all of those 'while I'm in there' jobs but I suppose it could've been worse. The rebuild will be as follows...
IMS with new sprocket to accommodate larger bearing
New timing chains and guides
New crank bearings
Cylinder head overhaul
New piston rings
Cylinder support rings
I've also purchased a TTV lightweight flywheel which will be balanced along with the crank, pressure plate and front sprocket.
Does anyone have any recommendations for a sprung clutch disc? I got the flywheel from Coordsport for a good price, they could also offer a Helix clutch but the price for the friction disc was more than the complete Sachs clutch kit at Euro Parts. It looks like the cheapest way of doing it is to buy the complete clutch kit from ECP or CP4L to get the pressure plate and release bearing then order the Helix friction disc.
Since I track the car a bit I was also considering the Hartech baffled sump kit (I've seen some worryingly low pressures at Silverstone). Reading the information that Grant sent me it does look much better than the other options on the market but it is eye wateringly expensive. Anyone have experience using this item? I'm pretty tempted just for the peace of mind
I always thought that if my engine failed I would go to a 3.7, but since there was no real damage, the price differentiation between leaving as a 3.4 and increasing the capacity is quite large so for now it will stay as a 3.4. Maybe next time round I'll go large!
So I've finally got some news to update you all on.
A few weeks ago I dropped the engine, stripped all the ancillaries off and delivered it to Hartech for investigation. Last week I got the call from Grant.
And the results are...... IMS bearing was failing. Apparently when this happens usually all of the debris that is dragged through the engine causes lots of damage to various components however it seems I have been very lucky and Grant has informed me that there was no damage whatsoever from the failing IMS. Which is kind of a result.
It's still not going to be cheap since the engine will still need to be rebuilt and now there are all of those 'while I'm in there' jobs but I suppose it could've been worse. The rebuild will be as follows...
IMS with new sprocket to accommodate larger bearing
New timing chains and guides
New crank bearings
Cylinder head overhaul
New piston rings
Cylinder support rings
I've also purchased a TTV lightweight flywheel which will be balanced along with the crank, pressure plate and front sprocket.
Does anyone have any recommendations for a sprung clutch disc? I got the flywheel from Coordsport for a good price, they could also offer a Helix clutch but the price for the friction disc was more than the complete Sachs clutch kit at Euro Parts. It looks like the cheapest way of doing it is to buy the complete clutch kit from ECP or CP4L to get the pressure plate and release bearing then order the Helix friction disc.
Since I track the car a bit I was also considering the Hartech baffled sump kit (I've seen some worryingly low pressures at Silverstone). Reading the information that Grant sent me it does look much better than the other options on the market but it is eye wateringly expensive. Anyone have experience using this item? I'm pretty tempted just for the peace of mind
I always thought that if my engine failed I would go to a 3.7, but since there was no real damage, the price differentiation between leaving as a 3.4 and increasing the capacity is quite large so for now it will stay as a 3.4. Maybe next time round I'll go large!
Good news that the motor isn't toast but after the rebuild you'll probably never need to go back in there again so now is the 3.7 time if you wanted to do it.
I'm running the TTV flywheel from coordsport on my 3.9 and I sourced the sprung friction disc from Techniclutch, they offer it with an organic or carbon friction material and from memory the unit was circa £105 delivered so a good saving on the helix unit and it may have been a Sachs branded item.
:thumb:
I'm running the TTV flywheel from coordsport on my 3.9 and I sourced the sprung friction disc from Techniclutch, they offer it with an organic or carbon friction material and from memory the unit was circa £105 delivered so a good saving on the helix unit and it may have been a Sachs branded item.
:thumb:
...I am bound to say that hartech are not the only company capable of rebuilding these chocolate engines...I spoke with them shortly after buying mine,explained that I was planning to change the IMS bearing as a precaution,was advised that I should stop worrying and drive the car,a few miles later the bearing failed!
Swarf every where and I am in for nearly £15k, just about everything has been replaced...
The company I am using will offer me a 2 year and 20,000 mile warranty .
Swarf every where and I am in for nearly £15k, just about everything has been replaced...
The company I am using will offer me a 2 year and 20,000 mile warranty .
Re: Update
How does the Hartech one differ from others? This one for instance?
https://www.design911.co.uk/fu/prod...t-Porsche-996--997---Boxster-986-987--Cayman/
Armagreggon85 said:
How does the Hartech one differ from others? This one for instance?
https://www.design911.co.uk/fu/prod...t-Porsche-996--997---Boxster-986-987--Cayman/
GMG said:
That sounds like terrible luck! Such a shame these engines have that fault.
I'm trying to figure out the tone of your post, are you blaming Hartech for the IMS failing?
I'm sure they would get more stick if they advised everyone to change the IMS. They already get lots of stick for 'scaremongering' when advising about the common faults on these motors. Given that statistically the IMS isn't likely to fail, you'd probably get similar advice from any indy.
No affiliation whatsoever with them by the way :thumb:
Armagreggon85
Silverstone
- Joined
- 4 Jan 2017
- Messages
- 104
Sorry to hear that GMG - it's not a nice experience but hopefully after we've spent all our money we will have some peace of mind for a while at least. I believe Hartech also offers 2years/20kmiles
Rdodger - The Hartech one is more similar to the Mantis racing one from the US or the LN engineering one. It utilises a horizontal windage tray and also there are some large walls in the sump which help contain the oil in the pick-up area. I think Grant might have said it's not really a retail product, more just what they fit on their race cars. Compared to the FVD item which is very slick and professional it looks a little rough in the images (It looks like a casting with little thought to aesthetics, the windage tray looks like it has been cut out with a jigsaw or a dremel rather than laser cut etc etc) however this is one area where I think function is far more important than form and it looks like it would be very effective. For twice the price of your option it would be nice to have both though
It does have mounting holes for a skid plate so I'll probably make one of those up to finish it off.
Thanks Harv, it was actually a previous post of yours that led me to Coordsport but I've read lot's of negative feedback regarding Techniclutch. Maybe I'll give them a go.
I spoke to RPM regarding their lightweight flywheel package which included the clutch kit and I believe uses the TTV flywheel and a clutch plate they have developed but that was going to cost circa £1200. I got the TTV flywheel from Coordsport for £450 (only £40 more than a dmf from ECP), clutch kit from ECP for £217 so I just need the friction plate now.
Rdodger - The Hartech one is more similar to the Mantis racing one from the US or the LN engineering one. It utilises a horizontal windage tray and also there are some large walls in the sump which help contain the oil in the pick-up area. I think Grant might have said it's not really a retail product, more just what they fit on their race cars. Compared to the FVD item which is very slick and professional it looks a little rough in the images (It looks like a casting with little thought to aesthetics, the windage tray looks like it has been cut out with a jigsaw or a dremel rather than laser cut etc etc) however this is one area where I think function is far more important than form and it looks like it would be very effective. For twice the price of your option it would be nice to have both though
It does have mounting holes for a skid plate so I'll probably make one of those up to finish it off.
Thanks Harv, it was actually a previous post of yours that led me to Coordsport but I've read lot's of negative feedback regarding Techniclutch. Maybe I'll give them a go.
I spoke to RPM regarding their lightweight flywheel package which included the clutch kit and I believe uses the TTV flywheel and a clutch plate they have developed but that was going to cost circa £1200. I got the TTV flywheel from Coordsport for £450 (only £40 more than a dmf from ECP), clutch kit from ECP for £217 so I just need the friction plate now.
I forget who makes the one sold by Design 911 but it's the same one poppopbangbang used on his car.
The Hartech one is circa £800 then?
Oh yes you are correct FVD
https://www.fvd.net/us-en/FVD20798801/oil-pan-fvd-motorsport.html
The Hartech one is circa £800 then?
Oh yes you are correct FVD
https://www.fvd.net/us-en/FVD20798801/oil-pan-fvd-motorsport.html
Nice one Armagreggon85.
Good positive attitude to the whole issue, and a stroke of luck with no damage to the engine. But then it goes to show that a proactive approach to your own vehicle maintenance can pay dividends. Don't suppose the engine would have survived another track day!
My own rebuild from Hartech is 400 miles into running in and sweeeet!! Definitely feels more responsive and powerful than before. Will be interested in how you view the flywheel conversion. I was thinking of doing it but being a bit of a Jessie, decided on keeping the compromise the way it is. That said I don't use it on the track like you.
In a past track car I used an ACCUSUMP. Very very good bit of kit. Cheaper than the sump mod you are looking at, and kept my car reliable and never had an issue with low oil pressure.
It works by having a floating piston contained within a cylinder. Oil flows into it direct from the oil pump. Its pressurised by having air one side of the piston. As the engine oil pressure rises, oil flows into the accusump until the pressure on the air side and the engine side equalizes.
i.e. Oil pressure in the engine 5 bar, oil in accusump is at 5 bar. So, if suddenly the oil pump pick up is starved of oil such as when the car corners or brake at high g, moving the oil away from the pick up, the oil pressure drops to say, 2 Bar the accusump sees 5 bar in the air side and 2 bar on the engine side and equalises the pressure by banging the oil back into the engine until both sides are equal again.
It can and does protect bearings for up to 10 seconds. It can also store oil at engine pressure when the engine is switched off, then on a cold start, release it when you turn the ignition back on just prior to turning the starter motor.
Negatives? You have to factor in more oil to store in the sump and the accusump. More pressure the more oil gets put into the accusump.... Also the sump mod may assist with keeping the oil under control and away from the crankshaft. Uncontrolled oil sloshing "might" * (I don't know on this engine) cost power by the crank having to push through it.
Anyway best of luck
Good positive attitude to the whole issue, and a stroke of luck with no damage to the engine. But then it goes to show that a proactive approach to your own vehicle maintenance can pay dividends. Don't suppose the engine would have survived another track day!
My own rebuild from Hartech is 400 miles into running in and sweeeet!! Definitely feels more responsive and powerful than before. Will be interested in how you view the flywheel conversion. I was thinking of doing it but being a bit of a Jessie, decided on keeping the compromise the way it is. That said I don't use it on the track like you.
In a past track car I used an ACCUSUMP. Very very good bit of kit. Cheaper than the sump mod you are looking at, and kept my car reliable and never had an issue with low oil pressure.
It works by having a floating piston contained within a cylinder. Oil flows into it direct from the oil pump. Its pressurised by having air one side of the piston. As the engine oil pressure rises, oil flows into the accusump until the pressure on the air side and the engine side equalizes.
i.e. Oil pressure in the engine 5 bar, oil in accusump is at 5 bar. So, if suddenly the oil pump pick up is starved of oil such as when the car corners or brake at high g, moving the oil away from the pick up, the oil pressure drops to say, 2 Bar the accusump sees 5 bar in the air side and 2 bar on the engine side and equalises the pressure by banging the oil back into the engine until both sides are equal again.
It can and does protect bearings for up to 10 seconds. It can also store oil at engine pressure when the engine is switched off, then on a cold start, release it when you turn the ignition back on just prior to turning the starter motor.
Negatives? You have to factor in more oil to store in the sump and the accusump. More pressure the more oil gets put into the accusump.... Also the sump mod may assist with keeping the oil under control and away from the crankshaft. Uncontrolled oil sloshing "might" * (I don't know on this engine) cost power by the crank having to push through it.
Anyway best of luck
I've just done the oil and filter on my 122k 98 3.4 c2, using Millers 10W50 CFS NT+ Nanotech.
I did find some metal flakes in the filter, but only 4 tiny ones. The magnetic sump plug did it's job and caught a bit of metal paste too.
It had an IMS about 4,000 miles ago, so the flakes could have been remnants of this, as this is only it's second time since then, that it's had an oil service and the first time it's had the filter cut open.
I found this thread to see how much metal flake was a worry and even though 4 tiny bits is a bit of a worry, it's nowhere near the number in the filter the OP shared with us, so I think "keep an eye on it" is the best way forward.
No timing chain guide plastic yet, which is a relief too.
I did find some metal flakes in the filter, but only 4 tiny ones. The magnetic sump plug did it's job and caught a bit of metal paste too.
It had an IMS about 4,000 miles ago, so the flakes could have been remnants of this, as this is only it's second time since then, that it's had an oil service and the first time it's had the filter cut open.
I found this thread to see how much metal flake was a worry and even though 4 tiny bits is a bit of a worry, it's nowhere near the number in the filter the OP shared with us, so I think "keep an eye on it" is the best way forward.
No timing chain guide plastic yet, which is a relief too.
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