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M96 Engine Rebuild time
- Thread starter Jamesx19
- Start date
maldren said:
I think the OP wants to future proof the car as it's a keeper, so a Hartech rebuild is a better option.
Really looking forward to following this. Keep the updates coming. Congratulations on choosing to save another 996 :worship:
Hi
DavidM - Thanks, yes as Alex says, I understand the early cars have a small dual-row bearing. From 2001 onwards, a small single row bearing, and from 2005/2006 M97 engines had a large single row bearing which is not known to fail.
Maldren - Hi, yes I did consider it, but as s70rjw says, the Hartech option I feel is a complete solution to known design compromises in the M96. A new Porsche short engine is around £6K +Vat I think, which is also more expensive as well.
Wasz- No I didn't take any pictures. They were around 3-5mm round. Flat and rough. I assume particles had come off the bearing, and got sucked up by the oil pump, collected and then forced through the pump gears flattening the debris. That is only my thoughts. I don't actually know. There were 2x and they were a slightly red bronze colour.
Alex and Wasz - Ha ha, thanks guys, I was hoping for some debate on this kind of thing. To be frank, the ultimate arbiter here is cost.
Would I like a 3.7. Sure, it'll be faster more tractable and the car would be worth more to a potential future buyer (Maybe, but then the build is for me, not a future buyer). If I did that, I wouldn't bother with a lightweight flywheel as everything would be more stretched toward the design limits. Bigger bangs, are going to make the crank, conrods, bearings, timing chains, valve train etc etc.... work harder. The engine will produce more heat for the cooling system to deal with and so it goes on.
Giving my car to Hartech would maybe (I don't know I haven't asked yet) put another £1000 onto the cost for them to reassemble. Plus whatever the extra cost of the larger cylinders, and the cost of mapping. It might start getting a bit out of hand...
Part of the reason I took the engine out myself is to save on labour costs so I could spend more on internal strengthening and future proofing.
Do I think the car is slow as it is? Nope. On a recent trip to Wales, we went out for a days blast around some favorite A and B road haunts. I used full throttle only once and that was momentary.
Also , I enjoy the sensation and noise of acceleration. Sometimes a slower car allows you to savour this for longer, rather than Brrraapp..... and bang, your at warp factor gazillion and are now waiting off the throttle for the looming corner ahead.
But yes, I'd still like a 3.7
Cheers for your input
DavidM - Thanks, yes as Alex says, I understand the early cars have a small dual-row bearing. From 2001 onwards, a small single row bearing, and from 2005/2006 M97 engines had a large single row bearing which is not known to fail.
Maldren - Hi, yes I did consider it, but as s70rjw says, the Hartech option I feel is a complete solution to known design compromises in the M96. A new Porsche short engine is around £6K +Vat I think, which is also more expensive as well.
Wasz- No I didn't take any pictures. They were around 3-5mm round. Flat and rough. I assume particles had come off the bearing, and got sucked up by the oil pump, collected and then forced through the pump gears flattening the debris. That is only my thoughts. I don't actually know. There were 2x and they were a slightly red bronze colour.
Alex and Wasz - Ha ha, thanks guys, I was hoping for some debate on this kind of thing. To be frank, the ultimate arbiter here is cost.
Would I like a 3.7. Sure, it'll be faster more tractable and the car would be worth more to a potential future buyer (Maybe, but then the build is for me, not a future buyer). If I did that, I wouldn't bother with a lightweight flywheel as everything would be more stretched toward the design limits. Bigger bangs, are going to make the crank, conrods, bearings, timing chains, valve train etc etc.... work harder. The engine will produce more heat for the cooling system to deal with and so it goes on.
Giving my car to Hartech would maybe (I don't know I haven't asked yet) put another £1000 onto the cost for them to reassemble. Plus whatever the extra cost of the larger cylinders, and the cost of mapping. It might start getting a bit out of hand...
Part of the reason I took the engine out myself is to save on labour costs so I could spend more on internal strengthening and future proofing.
Do I think the car is slow as it is? Nope. On a recent trip to Wales, we went out for a days blast around some favorite A and B road haunts. I used full throttle only once and that was momentary.
Also , I enjoy the sensation and noise of acceleration. Sometimes a slower car allows you to savour this for longer, rather than Brrraapp..... and bang, your at warp factor gazillion and are now waiting off the throttle for the looming corner ahead.
But yes, I'd still like a 3.7
Cheers for your input
Ouch James, Craig was telling me about this. :nooo:
It's what we all dread, although as said, it's something most of us will face if we keep the cars long term, which I intend to.
You're doing the wise thing and getting it done while hopefully a lot of the engine is salvageable. Should keep costs down compared to running it until it gives up or has more debris circulating through it than oil.
Will be sorted and worry free once done though and you'll quickly forget the financial pain. Just make sure you keep the bloody thing long enough afterwards, so you get the silver lining from the grey cloud. :grin:
Keep the thread updated. Goodstuff. :thumb:
... well it's bad stuff, but good info. You know what I mean. :wink:
It's what we all dread, although as said, it's something most of us will face if we keep the cars long term, which I intend to.
You're doing the wise thing and getting it done while hopefully a lot of the engine is salvageable. Should keep costs down compared to running it until it gives up or has more debris circulating through it than oil.
Will be sorted and worry free once done though and you'll quickly forget the financial pain. Just make sure you keep the bloody thing long enough afterwards, so you get the silver lining from the grey cloud. :grin:
Keep the thread updated. Goodstuff. :thumb:
... well it's bad stuff, but good info. You know what I mean. :wink:
Alex
Nordschleife
- Joined
- 6 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 22,161
T8 said:
Hartech will only do a standard rebuild if they dont't have the rest of the car. If they can refit the engine and test & remap then they will do the 3.7 upgrade. I'd send everything up there now and let them finish the job. Better after sales service too if something isn't right.
bazhart
Barcelona
- Joined
- 20 May 2009
- Messages
- 1,343
The problem with the need for re-maps is that we cannot tell how well the original system is working without dyno testing it.
Generally most examples will cope without altering the map but this is not as ideal as re-tuning it to suit the new capacity and we have also found some cars have flat spots from their standard set-up that also exist after the oversized rebuild and they will run better after sorting that out.
Ironically some after market fittings we inherit also affect performance (usually making it worse than standard bit perhaps sounding louder or more jerky - making them feel faster).
Also - without wishing to cast any doubts about the ability of other specialists or private individuals, our staff have years of engine rebuilding experience, all the measuring, machining and building equipment necessary and have been building almost one/day for several years and this inevitably puts them in a better position to judge what additional issues may emerge in any one individual rebuild - which they then attend to.
So to preserve the quality of our conversions and our reputation we prefer to include a re-map.
We have fitted oversized cylinders for some others and allowed them to finish their own job off - but have found that some of the people involved have not then adjusted other things (like cylinder compressions etc) or simply fitted other components we have not run our conversions with and it is a worry - that this could backfire - so we prefer to continue with control over our own destiny as far as possible.
Generally an oversized engine (as long as the increase is not to high a percentage of the original capacity) with deliver more mid-range torque, better throttle response and an easier car to drive. It may not make it feel a lot faster or have a higher top speed and keeps the additional torque within the original parameters of the design limits - making a reliable option possible.
Baz
Generally most examples will cope without altering the map but this is not as ideal as re-tuning it to suit the new capacity and we have also found some cars have flat spots from their standard set-up that also exist after the oversized rebuild and they will run better after sorting that out.
Ironically some after market fittings we inherit also affect performance (usually making it worse than standard bit perhaps sounding louder or more jerky - making them feel faster).
Also - without wishing to cast any doubts about the ability of other specialists or private individuals, our staff have years of engine rebuilding experience, all the measuring, machining and building equipment necessary and have been building almost one/day for several years and this inevitably puts them in a better position to judge what additional issues may emerge in any one individual rebuild - which they then attend to.
So to preserve the quality of our conversions and our reputation we prefer to include a re-map.
We have fitted oversized cylinders for some others and allowed them to finish their own job off - but have found that some of the people involved have not then adjusted other things (like cylinder compressions etc) or simply fitted other components we have not run our conversions with and it is a worry - that this could backfire - so we prefer to continue with control over our own destiny as far as possible.
Generally an oversized engine (as long as the increase is not to high a percentage of the original capacity) with deliver more mid-range torque, better throttle response and an easier car to drive. It may not make it feel a lot faster or have a higher top speed and keeps the additional torque within the original parameters of the design limits - making a reliable option possible.
Baz
Marky911 – Thanks for the comments Mark. Yes, I feel you are spot on. The M96 paranoia will be a thing of the past with any luck.
Baz – Thank you for the post. Clear and informative as always.
As I said. Happy for forum members posting their own thoughts and opinions on what they may do in my position with their own car and money. I could of course start a 'Save my Porsche" Charity for the ultimate no expense spared options.....
The expert advice will of course ultimately be from Hartech who will be doing the complete build of the engine. Any thoughts from owners that already have rebuilds would be appreciated as well.
I'll keep the thread updated with progress when it occurs.
Cheers
Baz – Thank you for the post. Clear and informative as always.
As I said. Happy for forum members posting their own thoughts and opinions on what they may do in my position with their own car and money. I could of course start a 'Save my Porsche" Charity for the ultimate no expense spared options.....
The expert advice will of course ultimately be from Hartech who will be doing the complete build of the engine. Any thoughts from owners that already have rebuilds would be appreciated as well.
I'll keep the thread updated with progress when it occurs.
Cheers
Hi James,
I feel your pain mate, I got my car back from Hartech last April after sending it down for a rebuild, we didn't know how bad mine was (same symptoms as yours) my oil light was on at idle and debris in the filter.
Anyway 12 month on I'm glad I did send to Hartech (Grant was brilliant to deal with) yes it was a serious expense at the time but as I say 12 month on and I've gotten over it and the car is going brilliant, it went reasonably well I thought before the rebuild but now it goes brilliant, I wonder how much ponies it had lost before the rebuild but now I can guarantee it has the 300 it was meant too.
I did think about pulling the the engine out myself but I just didn't have the time so had no option really but send the lot down.
Anyway best of luck James
I feel your pain mate, I got my car back from Hartech last April after sending it down for a rebuild, we didn't know how bad mine was (same symptoms as yours) my oil light was on at idle and debris in the filter.
Anyway 12 month on I'm glad I did send to Hartech (Grant was brilliant to deal with) yes it was a serious expense at the time but as I say 12 month on and I've gotten over it and the car is going brilliant, it went reasonably well I thought before the rebuild but now it goes brilliant, I wonder how much ponies it had lost before the rebuild but now I can guarantee it has the 300 it was meant too.
I did think about pulling the the engine out myself but I just didn't have the time so had no option really but send the lot down.
Anyway best of luck James
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