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MarkGolf
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 396
Location: S.London


PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Valve adjustment/clearances DIY? Reply with quote

Hi guys,

As I like to get intimate Cop Embarassed Dont know with my cars, I want to do the valve adjustment on my 964, it's done 80k and I have no clue when they were last done, it sounds a bit ticky and as I have the valve cover seal kit, I figured lets have a go..

I'm finding it hard to come across a decent DIY guide.

Has anyone done it themselves? Does it require any special tools?

I have done clearnaces on cars before using a normal leaf feeler gauge, hoping it's the same deal with the 964.

Cheers!

A link to a decent DIY would be appreciated!
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Chief
Magny-Cours


Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 2619
Location: The Middle lands


PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,
You can buy a little feeler gauge on kind of a curled 90 degree steel bend. This allows you to get the thing into the tight spaces needed. It's kind of easier on a ramp to be honest. Getting to the lower valve covers is easy peezy but the upper ones are tricky. My best advise would be recon on the whole day to complete the task. Make sure you have new cover gaskets from OPC and if memory serves the cover bolts are only torqued down to 5 foot pounds. You need a bicycle torque wrench for that job.....Good luck Thumb

Oh, just thought change the plugs whilst you're at it. The amount of stuff you have to take off to do the job, it will be a cheap insurance to get that done whilst you have the plugs out to turn the engine, oh and make sure to label up the HT leads....
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MarkGolf
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 396
Location: S.London


PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Chief!

Good shout on the labeling 90 degree feeler, I had just come across a video on YouTube which pretty much showed me what I was after. Looks easier than doing valve shim swaps on BMW M engines but that isn't saying much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vYHCJy2-8w

No luxury of a ramp just yet but I'll get the car on axle stands in the garage and see how I get on, I was worried that I would have to remove the heat exchangers for a second but thankfully, it seems they get to remain on (The nuts are typically rusted and not something I want to tackle just yet).

I have the gasket kit, just need the 90 degree feeler and plugs. I'm in no rush so if I get stuck, I can down tools although I'm sure I will get distracted with the extra bits I can spend hours cleaning and painting now half the car has been removed Grin Laughing

Thanks for the tips, will get the bits I need ordered, do the job and update my thread with the progress Smile
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12305
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are checked as part of a major service when the plugs are changed out and what my Indy is doing to my car at present, amongst several other things Rolling Eyes

Top tip, if you have to loosen the rocker shaft bolts to adjust make sure you tighten them up as tight as a monkey's foreskin as there are reports they can work loose, manifested in loud tappet noise followed by fouling a cam what

If you end up with a noticeable tappet sound don't ignore it as I'm convinced these coming loose is a cause of the 964 rebuild and no surprise you can buy locking bolts in the US nooo
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MarkGolf
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 396
Location: S.London


PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great advice, thank you!

I suspect they will need adjusting, the last stamp in the book was in 2007 and I don’t think they were done, then the previous owner took over maintenance, its covered less than 5k miles since the last stamp in 07 and just been through restoration while with me so this is next on the cards. I want to do the valve clearances as im quite picky and want to make sure they’re perfect (read lack of trust in others), then it’ll get booked in somewhere for the stamp and major service or whatever they call it in porsche terms.

What plugs do you guys run? Can get a set of 12 from porsche for £90 but before I do, is there a recommended alternative?
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Chief
Magny-Cours


Joined: 16 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark
Iridium plugs are supposed to be an advantage. Not that sue to be honest on a standard car. Have a look on eBay and see what offers are out there.
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12305
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also think about the dizzy drive belt if it's not been done for years. Mine was done several years ago but I've just asked my Indy to drop in a new one as preventative maintenance Thumb

Plugs are plugs and given the usual swap out rate on these cars I reckon the usual will be up to the job.
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AVI_8
Silverstone


Joined: 19 Jan 2014
Posts: 100
Location: Prestwick


PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a write up many years ago on the owners club forum but can't seem to find it.
As mentioned get the correct feeler gauge
Get a new set of bolts nuts holding the cat to the manifold as these will snap off.
Remove the lambda sensor from the plug inside the engine bay don't remove the lambda sensor from the cat.
As Zingers mentioned check all of the rocker shafts are correctly centred in the cam housing, as they can move sideways and if they do they can cause the rocker to seize, that's exactly what happened to mine causing the rocker shaft to snap in half, so know what you're looking for when you're inspecting them there's loads of threads on Internet detailing how the shaft should sit in the cam tower.
Replace the plugs while you're in there, also it's much easier to turn engine over with the plugs removed.
It's not a difficult job just a bit fiddly due to the limited space with a few of the upper rockers when adjusting.
Edited to mention that the enclosures at the side of each rocker arm sealed compartments should be dry and if they're not the likely culprit is a leak from the rocker shaft into that are, the shafts are sealed by expansion of the shaft against the housing when the through bolt is tightened, if this area is oily the oil drips through the open area onto the heat exchanger giving that burnt oil smell all too many 964 owners are familiar with.
 
  
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igaffz
Albert Park


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 1690
Location: Newcastle upon tyne


PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used the Bentley book as a guide when I did mine a couple of years ago.
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MarkGolf
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 396
Location: S.London


PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys, great info. I had temporarily put this on hold as I got the bug for an R129 SL500 but that didn’t materialise today so back to this..

I’ve seems some NGK plugs which I’ve normally always used on various cars for £47 a set of 12, if these cars aren’t too fussy with plugs then this seems a great deal.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F360475608236

I begrudgingly paid £25 for the correct feeler gauge which arrived today and I began the strip down.

So far I’ve stripped the blower and air filter, the entire exhaust system and half of the tin ware so far. Everything has come off nicely thankfully.

One question, while I’m at it and everything’s out, I wanted to change the seals on the rear chain covers as there seems to be a lot of oil at the bottom of these, can I do these with the engine in or is it a big job? Seems like I have to remove rear engine mount.

Cheers!
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ras62
Montreal


Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 592
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Indy swears never use NGK in a Porsche. Ive seen two 944's with misfires that disappeared as soon as the NGK were changed for Bosch. No idea why tbh.
Working on the chain covers means the engine support must come off. Leaks here could be simply the dounuts holding the cover in place or at the rear side where the cam triangle gaskets live attached to the cam carrier.
R129 SL500 Thumb Great car and lovely to live with a good one.
 
  
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MarkGolf
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 396
Location: S.London


PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ohh interesting, I'm going to hold fire on the plugs until I see what is currently in there, I ca get some Bosch ones but then again, I've always been alright with NGK's..

I'll have a good poke around the chain covers, I didn't release oil could come from the bolt doughnuts! Now you say that, that could be where as it seems to drip down the cover as opposed to from the sides.. I'll focus on the valves first then decide on that.

SL500 is coming now, so need to get this wrapped up before that absorbs my time as it needs some work in order for it to be up to standard. A bit of a spur of the moment thing but always loved them so couldn't refuse!

Thanks all!
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MarkGolf
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 396
Location: S.London


PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question!

I know on these cars, that you’re meant to run the car upto temp and then drain the oil, obviously I can’t do that now...

What happens now?

Do I just dump it and be mindful of how much comes out or can I get away with doing the valve job, refitting the car up and doing the oil change as it should be done?

Thanks
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AVI_8
Silverstone


Joined: 19 Jan 2014
Posts: 100
Location: Prestwick


PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a dry sump engine so you'll probably not get much more than a litre of oil out when you remove the engine sump plug unless it's been sitting for a while.
So you could run it up to temp when the valve job has been done then drain the engine again and the oil tank, hot oil flows more easily, I wait until the oil thermostat has opened before draining the tank in order to get as much of the oil from the lines going to the cooler to drain as possible, you'll never get all of the oil out though.

Then usually swear a lot as the boiling oil flows over my hands when the plug comes out!
 
  
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ras62
Montreal


Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 592
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check the valves on a stone cold engine. Afterwards run the engine to hot and change the oil. 8L would be typical for a change then top up on the stick/gauge when very hot and on level ground.
 
  
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MarkGolf
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 396
Location: S.London


PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, doing this is a abdominal work out, would be much nicer if it was high up on a ramp and I could stand. I see why the 90 degree feeler gauge is required also, I'm half way through the job as I've been sidetracked by cleaning up some of the removed parts but out of the 4 valves I've checked, only 1 needed minor adjustment.

I some how, got 5 litres out of the engine by undoing one of the lower cam covers and then realising there is a ***** ton of oil, undone the engine drain plug. In total I got just over 5 litres from here alone, I am yet to drain the oil tank.

It hasn't been started for approx 3-4 weeks now.

My car has original Porsche plugs so I'm going to replace with the same for piece of mind.

However, the tips being white normally means it's running hot, so run a colder plug... umm


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AVI_8
Silverstone


Joined: 19 Jan 2014
Posts: 100
Location: Prestwick


PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From your picture most of the plugs are a tan colour which is normal the other 4 are a bit more white, were they from the furthest cylinders from the fan?
All looks OK to me, regarding the oil from the engine over a period of time it does return back to the engine due to gravity. If you'd drained the engine sump after shutting it down there would have been very little.
Next time you'll know to drain all of the oil when it's warm before tackling the valves.
If you've got 5 litres of oil from the engine there will not be a lot in the tank so don't start the engine now until you've done the oil change as you'll be well below minimum level.
Have you had a chance to check the rocker shaft alignment yet? They should be completely centralised on the rocker arm not the cam tower and definitely not protruding from the tower.
Just saying as its not uncommon for the shafts to move laterally.
 
  
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MarkGolf
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 396
Location: S.London


PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're correct on the plugs, the whiter ones were further away..

I wasn't planning to change the oil as I didn't know it was meant to be dropped but I have now drained from the oil tank and changed the filter for a nice red purolator.

I estimate approx 8 liters has come out now but I'll know for sure when I empty it into a measuring bottle. I'll refill with new oil and run for a few weeks and then change again to get a full flush.

The rocker shafts were all fine, I checked after you mentioned and all is good. I've now completed the job of checking the clearances and buttoned the engine back up. Only 3 adjustments were needed, 2 too loose and 1 too tight.

Just waiting on some new tin ware and plugs then I can get it back together!

Thanks for your help on this.

A straight forward enough job, just takes some time, mainly the strip down and reassembly!
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ras62
Montreal


Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 592
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While you are doing some diy an idea on those whilte plugs. Move the cooling fan/alternator slightly and with a torch have a look / feel on top of the rear cylinders to make sure the heads are free of detritus that would hinder cooling. The rears head fins can become blocked over time and its virtually impossible to see a problem with the cooling fan in position.
 
  
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MarkGolf
Nürburgring


Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 396
Location: S.London


PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would make sense..

When I previously had the fan out, I did find a load of junk behind there and under the cowling. Even when doing this job, I found bits of nature in between the cooling fins and in odd places, mainly up top so I think the worst of it is out and I have no idea how long these plugs have been in but that may explain it.

Thanks again for the great tip!
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