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C4-STORM
Hockenheim


Joined: 29 Aug 2017
Posts: 631
Location: Hampshire

2004 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
All I can say is if someone had my car or 75k of my money , trust me they would not for very long, as the boys and I would be having a friendly chat with them. Cool Mad Cool

Seems strange that owed that sort of money but no mention of going to face to face them, and just accepting a fob off on the phone, maybe over a couple of grand but not that sort of money , I would be down there pronto and leaving with car or dosh Grin Thumb


Agree with a bit of gentle persuasion Cigar Boxer Hammer
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7038
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the legal position on buying a car in good faith on SOR when the money has not been passed to the seller by the dealer?

Effectively the car has been stolen, no?
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Ghost
Estoril


Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 3934
Location: In absentia


PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have walked away, having now heard more or less the same from various sources. Might have a chat with 911V.
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easternjets
Kyalami


Joined: 29 Apr 2016
Posts: 1979
Location: Darlington


PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just goes to show the value of sharing experiences on an open forum, it's coming up to two years since I had my Yorkshire Classic Porsche nightmare!
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C4-STORM
Hockenheim


Joined: 29 Aug 2017
Posts: 631
Location: Hampshire

2004 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robertb wrote:
What is the legal position on buying a car in good faith on SOR when the money has not been passed to the seller by the dealer?

Effectively the car has been stolen, no?


This is the trouble with SOR arrangements.

When the dealer sells, the end user can be exposed as the dealer does not have clear title at the point of sale. Same principle applies with car finance. The finance company owns the vehicle so if the vehicle is traded in as a part exchange but the dealer fails to settle the finance, when the car is sold it still belongs to the finance company and can be recovered. Difference is an HPI due diligence check will flag up a car on finance but not a car on SOR (unless it is manufacturer supplied to dealer in which case they mark it with an alert).

With regards to brokers, paperwork/contracts are key. A broker is effectively acting as a 'middleman' and assisting with the sale from the seller to the new owner, a percentage of the sale price or a fixed fee is factored within the broker's/seller's contract. They handle the transaction on behalf of the seller.

People have been caught wide open on this from legitimate dealers purchasing stock within the trade (from other traders) which hasn't been paid for to customers being able to display their cars on a dealers forecourt on SOR basis with no paperwork.

Have come across it loads of times even helped a customer who was being taken to court by a finance company for non payment of arrears when their car was displayed on an independent trader's forecourt and he had 'promised' to settle her finance..

Unless they are absolutely dependable I would steer well clear personally
Thumb
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Motoring Editor
Motoring Editor


Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 7059



PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: GMUND Cars and current scary experience Reply with quote

breezer_boy wrote:
I bought a 996 Turbo S Cab back in April 2014 from Gmund. It was a stretch at the time but the car was right and at 17k miles it was a hoped investment. It was and due to an unexpected tax bill, I talked with Andrew in Oct 2016 regarding selling on my behalf for a commission. He proposed a sale or return deal that seemed reasonable and offered to collect the car within the same afternoon which I went with and then called back as I felt I need some time to think over and assure myself I was doing the correct thing. Andrew assured me that the truck was already en-route, but not to worry as they wouldn't sell the car without my consent and agreement on price. So it went (with 21k miles now on the clock) and I remained unsure, but as it was winter didn't think buyers would queuing at his door. After an offer that I declined and confirmed that no longer want to sell, he told me that the he had all but sold the car and it would be difficult to go back on the sale. 3 months later I can't get hold of him and his staff refuse to tell me anything. I have a solicitor involved and he has refrained from responding so far. I'm totally shocked as he was great and seemed so honourable. He dealt with any post sale queries in 2014 and has been welcoming and very helpful since then. Ive visited Gmund during a recent porsche club (North East) meet and really had no worries about his integrity. Now I'm dumbstruck and regretting letting the car on to the truck last Oct. It's now with my solicitors. Worried and shocked doesn't describe my current state. out of pocket now for the value of £75k and an unknown outcome. I have no idea if he's going bust, is in cash flow trouble or just un professional. The car has increased in value roughly £5k since he took it and I just want my car back. Anyone else had similar experience. Also welcome any advice on how to proceed in recovering the car..


This is a shocking situation.
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 663
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
All I can say is if someone had my car or 75k of my money , trust me they would not for very long, as the boys and I would be having a friendly chat with them. Cool Mad Cool

Seems strange that owed that sort of money but no mention of going to face to face them, and just accepting a fob off on the phone, maybe over a couple of grand but not that sort of money , I would be down there pronto and leaving with car or dosh Grin Thumb


...a quick stop off in JD sports on the way (to buy a persuader) Shooter
 
  
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mark pearce
Approved Trader


Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 2729
Location: Nationwide


PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C4-STORM wrote:
Robertb wrote:
What is the legal position on buying a car in good faith on SOR when the money has not been passed to the seller by the dealer?

Effectively the car has been stolen, no?


This is the trouble with SOR arrangements.

When the dealer sells, the end user can be exposed as the dealer does not have clear title at the point of sale. Same principle applies with car finance. The finance company owns the vehicle so if the vehicle is traded in as a part exchange but the dealer fails to settle the finance, when the car is sold it still belongs to the finance company and can be recovered. Difference is an HPI due diligence check will flag up a car on finance but not a car on SOR (unless it is manufacturer supplied to dealer in which case they mark it with an alert).

With regards to brokers, paperwork/contracts are key. A broker is effectively acting as a 'middleman' and assisting with the sale from the seller to the new owner, a percentage of the sale price or a fixed fee is factored within the broker's/seller's contract. They handle the transaction on behalf of the seller.

People have been caught wide open on this from legitimate dealers purchasing stock within the trade (from other traders) which hasn't been paid for to customers being able to display their cars on a dealers forecourt on SOR basis with no paperwork.

Have come across it loads of times even helped a customer who was being taken to court by a finance company for non payment of arrears when their car was displayed on an independent trader's forecourt and he had 'promised' to settle her finance..

Unless they are absolutely dependable I would steer well clear personally
Thumb



My understanding, which came from a barrister after I'd been ripped off many years ago, is/ was.

When you give a car dealer a car on sale or return, Title passes to the dealer.

if he doesn't pay you, its not theft and you cannot 'repossess' the car from its new owner,
All you can do is sue him for the money as a unpaid debt.



I would caution anyone from giving a car to a dealer on sale or return, Your better off taking £2 0r £3000 less for it and knowing the money's in your bank.


And I have heard of cases where someones lost the car to the SOR dealer and they 're still paying off the finance on it
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7038
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Mark Pearce... That's quite scary... so, if a dealer goes bust with your car in SOR stock then you are royally screwed as it would presumably get sold off to pay creditors.
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Osh
Sepang


Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 2913
Location: Bristol


PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP was in Jan 2017 - over a year ago now.

Is it posisble that someone at 911uk-Towers could contact the OP and ask him how things have gone since then...?? Maybe you have his registered email address...??

I'd love him to post an update;
- Did he get this sorted out...??
- Did he get his money
- How long and how difficult was it...??
- God forbid, did he lose all his money on this...??
- Is he still tied up in legals...??

Whats the score - would be good for us all to know and update knowledge on a source of Porsches for sale...


Just my 2' worth


Osh
 
  
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7038
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed...Gmund still trading, so surely they should be contacted for right of reply.

Ghost has already gone elsewhere as a result, it would be a shame if Gmund lost business on the basis of unfounded internet scuttlebut from a one or two time poster.
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911UK
Porsche Community
Porsche Community


Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 10042
Location: 911UK

1997 Porsche 993 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osh wrote:
The OP was in Jan 2017 - over a year ago now.

Is it posisble that someone at 911uk-Towers could contact the OP and ask him how things have gone since then...?? Maybe you have his registered email address...??

I'd love him to post an update;
- Did he get this sorted out...??
- Did he get his money
- How long and how difficult was it...??
- God forbid, did he lose all his money on this...??
- Is he still tied up in legals...??

Whats the score - would be good for us all to know and update knowledge on a source of Porsches for sale...


Just my 2' worth


Osh


Osh

I've contracted the OP in respect to this, not sure how this was previously missed, hopefully this has been resolved satisfactorily ??

I saw the dates and read 28 Jan and 29 Jan then followed up by 01 Feb but didnt clock it was Jan 2017 to Feb 2018, so not a few days!

cheers
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Last edited by 911UK on Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Rhodris-dad
Hockenheim


Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 663
Location: RHYL

2015 Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't £75k a lot of money in 2017 for a 996 Turbo S? Question
 
  
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FZP
Paul Ricard


Joined: 18 Jan 2015
Posts: 3400
Location: Cheshire


PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil 997 wrote:
All I can say is if someone had my car or 75k of my money , trust me they would not for very long, as the boys and I would be having a friendly chat with them. Cool Mad Cool

Seems strange that owed that sort of money but no mention of going to face to face them, and just accepting a fob off on the phone, maybe over a couple of grand but not that sort of money , I would be down there pronto and leaving with car or dosh Grin Thumb


100%. I've done worse for less, much less money than the OP is talking about. It's amazing how persuasive an ornamental Fijian War Axe can be in certain situations Bandit
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Zingari
Donnington
Donnington


Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 12767
Location: Cheshire

1993 Porsche 964 Anniversary

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surprised I'm still wondering how a 996TT Cab can go for 75 bags as that's near 997.2 territory what

What does the paperwork say as that is my starting point in terms of contractual agreement you made? Armed with that I'd be camped out in Gmund's showroom wanting my dough and wouldn't leave until I got it or big Phil and his chums could travel up from Bournemouth for a show of strength Bandit
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KP964
Indianapolis


Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 2264
Location: Northumberland


PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two posts then no response , angry customer internet wind up.
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Robertb
Dijon


Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 7038
Location: South Oxfordshire

2002 Porsche 996 Carrera 4S

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only 996 Turbo S cabby showing as sold on their site was up for £69995.
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Jay.
Montreal


Joined: 20 Oct 2015
Posts: 553
Location: Brize Norton


PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhodris-dad wrote:
Wasn't £75k a lot of money in 2017 for a 996 Turbo S? Question


Low miles + all the hype that was last year



Interested to see how this worked out..
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Fastlane
Spa-Francorchamps


Joined: 05 Mar 2017
Posts: 344
Location: Truro


PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re. Gmund - I bought a 964 turbo from them in April 2006, as did a friend of mine around the same time. Let's just say neither of us would ever buy from them again.
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closer to the edge
Newbie


Joined: 01 Dec 2018
Posts: 8



PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For anyone thinking of selling their car via Gmund on a SOR, I would suggest they read this thread on the Impact Bumpers Forum.

This is not the first time I have read a post from someone seeking help having sold a 911 on a SOR via Gmund and not having received the proceeds months later. DDK had a thread a while ago from another "customer" and I also saw another thread posted on Gmunds Facebook page complaining of the same thing.

https://www.impactbumpers.com/forum/index.php?/topic/33091-does-anyone-know-the-silver-32-at-gmund-cars/page/3/&tab=comments#comment-384299
 
  
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