Welcome to 911UK
The only place for Porsche, 911uk is the definitive enthusiast and resource site for the Porsche 911.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so join up today for full access to the site and benefit from latest member offers.

Porsche Classifieds
Porsche Buyers Guides
Sell Your Porsche on 911uk
Create a Free Classified Advert
Search Ads
Classified Adverts FAQ
Trade Classified Information
Buyer & Seller Fraud Protection
Consumer Rights Act
Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI)
Porsche Car Sourcing
Porsche Cars Wanted
Official Porsche Centre Reviews
Model
Stock
Porsche 911
991 : 2011- 14
997 : 2004- 75
996 : 1997-2005 41
993 : 1993-1998 8
964 : 1989-1993 6
Carrera 3.2 : 1983-1989 1
Carrera SC : 1977-1983 1
930 Turbo : 1975-1989 0
Early 911 : 1964-1977 2
Porsche Other Models
Classic : 1950-1965 1
Boxster : 1997- 10
Cayman : 2005- 19
Cayenne : 2003- 7
Macan : 2014- 3
Panamera : 2009- 2
912-914-924-928-944-968 2
959 - CarreraGT - RaceCar 1
Car Parts For Sale & Wanted
Other Items For Sale & Wanted
Wheels Tyres For Sale & Wanted
Number Plates For Sale Wanted

Porsche Services
Porsche Body Shop Repair
Paint Protection & Wrapping
Porsche Classic Insurance
Porsche Classic Parts
Porsche Classic Restoration
Porsche Design Collection
Porsche Engine Gearbox Rebuild
Porsche Heritage & History
Porsche News
Porsche Picture Gallery
Win a New Porsche 911

Porsche Parts
Body Parts, Body Styling
Brakes, Clearance
Electrical, Exhausts
Engine Cooling, Engine Electrical
Engine Rebuild, Heating Cooling
Interior Incar, Lighting
Rubber Seals, Service Parts
Steering, Suspension
Transmission, Workshop Tools
Early 911, 911 - 930, 928 - 968
964 - 993, 996 - 997, Boxster
Cayman, Cayenne, Panamera

Porsche Model Range
911 [991] 2011-Current
Porsche 911 [991]
911 [997] 2004-Current
Porsche 911 [997]
911 [GT] GT1-GT2-GT3
Porsche 911 [GT]
911 [996] 1997-2005
Porsche 911 [996]
911 [993] 1993-1998
Porsche 911 [993]
911 [RS] RS-RSR
Porsche 911 [RS]
911 [964] 1989-1993
Porsche 911 [964]
911 3.2 1983-1989
Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera
911 SC 1977-1983
Porsche 911 SC
911 [Early] 1964-1977
Porsche 911 [Early]
Boxster & Cayman
Porsche Boxster & Cayman
Cayenne & Panamera
Porsche Cayenne & Panamera

911uk Site Partners

Post new topic   Reply to topic
Author Message
MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5608
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other core plug is in, just full of oil. Assuming you meal the one top left of the picture. I'll get a better closeup of the sump contents in the morning.
If there any particulat technique to open the oil filter to inspect it? It is still fitted.

MC
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7352
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterCorn wrote:
If there any particular technique to open the oil filter to inspect it? It is still fitted.


I just cut the plastic ends off with a blade then roll open the concertina.
_________________
http://euroroadtripper.blogspot.co.uk/

 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
Dammit
Suzuka


Joined: 23 Sep 2016
Posts: 1125



PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting to follow as you strip this down.

One thing I find myself wondering - how much is being left on the table with regards to the performance of these engines by the age (and therefore lack of sophistication when compared to current) of the ECU?

And to what extent does that performance gap widen (if at all, of course) when going to the 3.7, potentially with lumpier cams and optimised heads?

**Opens Syvecs website again**
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5608
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A chunk more done and things are not looking good for this engine....

This is a closeup of the bits in the sump:





And one of some debris in the filter:



The engine was locked at TDC on cylinder 1 by using a pin in the crankshaft and making sure that the gap in the end of the camshaft is pointing away from the crankcase, after removing the camshaft end covers:




Camshaft locking tool was then adjusted and put in place:



Camshaft solenoid cover removed and the bolts replaced. I try to keep bolts where they come from whenever possible:


All bolts removed, working from the outside inwards:


Using a plastic mallet I then worked around the cover to release it. The sound changes as it releases becoming very hollow. the cover is then removed.



You can see the very clear wear on the bearings here. The lobes themselves look to be OK.

The four bolts holding on the main timing chain are removed and the timing pulley pulled off the end of the camshaft. By the look of some of the bolts somebody has clearly been in here before, I suspec they let their dog try to chew the bolts out:



The two end camshaft bearing covers are then removed along with the three long bolts which hold down the timing adjuster. Again the heads are not in good shape.



The camshaft and adjuster is then lifted from the head in one piece.

There is very definite and serious looking marks on the bearing faces on a few of the bearings in the head, also on the end bearing covers:



The baffle plate also looks like it has been attacked.



I am wondering what other horrors are lying further below. Right now I am not sure that this will ever be rebuilt. It looks like it will need new heads and new camshafts unless there is a way that these can be saved.

MC
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1189



PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to see that MC

Looks like quite a bit of debris has been going round. Perhaps it failed before and it had some half assed 'rebuild'.

The grit in the sump tells a story.

I think the crank will be scored and maybe you'll find issue with a cylinder. (just my gut feeling, poss a bad D chunk repair).

I don't think there's many options for the heads when there's that much damage to the bearing saddles until someone develops a method to line bore them and add shells. Hope the other head is better.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
maldren
Montreal


Joined: 07 Oct 2016
Posts: 555



PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it can't be saved, it may be possible have value as an exchange engine with Porsche for you or someone else, obviously that's a short motor and it still leaves the issue of the state of the heads.

It would be interesting to have comments from a regular re-builder (Hartec perhaps?) to see how typical/unusual this engine is.
_________________
Mike
2003 996.2 C2 Coupe Arctic Silver
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5608
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Took out the tappets and placed them so I know which one is which.
Undid the 15 bolts around the valve tappet guide and then removed it.



The oil baffle was removed with the single bolt.



Then the four screws around chain box. The instructions say that these are pan head with captive washers but mine were allen bolts, three with washers, one without.

The bolt for the guide was then removed, again it looks like somebody has been here before me...



The sprocket for the cam drive was removed and then the head bolts all undone, working from the outside inwards. A few taps with a plastic mallet and the head was off.

Chain guides are well past it:


The combustion chambers look pretty clean:


The bores also look good. I cleaned one up a bit and it looked good.




All parts for this side stored and on to the other half.





I wonder if I was have some camshafts made if it would be possible to have larger journals put on the camshafts and have the head line bored for the larger bearings???

MC
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1189



PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes that maybe an option if it's not prohibitively expensive (ie more than a used head and cams). The call will come once you know how bad the guides, seats and valves are as that will really push the costs up.

Personally I'd ditch the cam followers as you can buy a set INA ones (they are the OEM supplier) for about £120, not from Porsche though!

Thumb
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Martin996RSR
Silverstone


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Posts: 132



PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally wouldn't write off those heads because of the cam bearing scoring. The damage will have been caused by particles making their way through the oilways to the bearings, and it's the source of those particles that I would look for.
The cam bearings are oil fed and not subject to serious loads, so because of that I wouldn't be concerned about them getting worse with further use if the rest of the (particle generating) issues in the engine are addressed.

That said, really want to know what Baz from Hartech would have to say on the subject, and the stuff the OP is finding as he progresses.
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7352
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As said the cam bearing faces have been scored because of the swarf in the oil system, whoever ran it possibly ran it low on oil which tore up the crank bearings sending swarf around the engine, they also may have topped up the oil (it was already too far gone) making the damage worse by driving it for longer with what was contaminated in the oil.

If anything can be salvaged I would be tempted to get the cams and head cam faces welded up and machined to standard sizes, this shouldn't cost too much and then at least you are back to just needing a crank and bearings as you had already planned for.
_________________
http://euroroadtripper.blogspot.co.uk/

 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
PeterS
Fuji


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 9140
Location: Solihull

2003 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's never a good sign to see chewed up bolt heads and wrong bolts fitted.

It means a bodge-merchant has been there before you.

Goodness knows what has been done.

Flog the decent bits and forget about it.
_________________
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5608
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeterS wrote:
It's never a good sign to see chewed up bolt heads and wrong bolts fitted.

It means a bodge-merchant has been there before you.

Goodness knows what has been done.

Flog the decent bits and forget about it.


Where is the fun in that Smile It will be interesting to see what I find when I get to the source of the damage, and if I can do the job properly and get it back to being a great engine then it will be all the more satisfying for it. As I will be stripping and inspecting the entire engine there will be no unknowns left with a bit of luck.

MC
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
ragpicker
Paul Ricard


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 3304
Location: North East England


PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fascinating read dude, I love a bit of detective work too...

I can't imagine a professional outfit will have tried to rebuild this engine before, it looks like a DIYer's first attempt what

Whilst I think you'll easily find the source of the metal particles (shells being my guess, and lets hope the crank isn't beyond repair), I doubt you'll ever find the cause of the problem because that will have been removed at the previous rebuild, unlike all the $hit floating round in the engine!
_________________
996 turbo - slightly modified....
986 S - usually in pieces: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=112626
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
Demort
Estoril


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 3916
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have metal particles in the oil that have circulated and caused the damage to the cams and pretty much everything else thats oil fed imho .

Crank and shells probably wont be pretty .

See what the damage is when you get it totally stripped .

A total guess but atm it kinda looks like a failed IMS bearing thats been replaced without cleaning out all the metal .

Good pictures and detail though .. its like being at work in the evening for me .. not sure thats a good thing though .

My hat off to you Smile
_________________
Mechanic

7pm - 9pm
At an Indy these days !
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5608
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wind was keeping me awake so I thought I would get up early and get a bit more done before I start work.

Moving on to the 4-6 head I basically repeated the same procedure as for the other head, except I couldn't set the engine to TDC on the correct stroke due to other head being off and the chain not wanting to turn. The damage on this head and camshafts does not look as bad, although there are clear signs that it has been off before. The head bolts were not very tight either, I measured them at around 25 lb/ft to break them. The chain tensioner was also not in very tight.

Camshaft holder fitted:


Tensioner removed:


Scavenge pump removed and solenoid cover removed, note the marker pen from a previous visitor:


All bolts undone ready to remove the cover:


Cover off:


Timing chain sprocket unbolted. Tensioner bolts and the bearing covers removed so that the camshafts can be removed, camshafts and timing adjuster removed:


Tappets removed as before, then the carrier was unbolted and removed, the tappets were put back in the correct places. They most likely won't be ever used again, but it is just a habit of trying to keep things where they came from.

Again the bores look to be in decent shape, and the head looks clean:





Now that the heads are off all of the parts have been put on one side for further work later:


The next job is to split the crankcase. The manual calls for a special tool to hold the flywheel pulley still whilst the nut is undone. I don't have one, but I do have a similar tool made many years ago for the same job on another car:


After the puller was removed the crankshaft to IMS tensioner is removed, to get to this I had to remove a water pipe:


IMS cover and centre nut is removed next. The centre nut needs to be undone whilst using a screwdriver to hold the middle still. This calls for another Porsche special tool, I guess deep ring spanners are not part of the German tool kit?


This elbow was then removed, followed by the water gallery which also holds the oil pump:




Guide rails and sump gubbins next I think, either later today or tomorrow.

Although I haven't got a proper bore measuring micrometer, I could have a go at measuring the bores with digital calipers. I assume the problem with bore ovality requires measuring the tops of the bores?

MC
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
wasz
Watkins Glen


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2111


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great to see it all come apart. I bet it doesn't go back together so quickly!

I don't think I could sit at my desk and do normal work when that is calling from the next room!
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
EGTE
Montreal


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 621



PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting and educational.

Thanks for taking the time to post these pictures and commentaries. Thumb
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
MisterCorn
Zolder


Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 5608
Location: Nottingham, England

2004 Porsche 996 Turbo

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chain guide bolts are removed next:


Three of them came out easily and there wasn’t a lot of wear on the guides. The last one has a chewed up head and will need to have an extractor on it at some point. This is the one with the very worn guide. Clearly had a 'partial' rebuild at some point:


Next up the two air/oil separators and the oil pickup are removed:


Then turn the engine over to get the at the two bolts which hold cylinder 1-3 crank case to the bearing carrier.


Then flip the engine over again and undo the single long bolt in the other crank case. Then after undoing the 24 short bolts which hold the two crank case halves together the top half can be simply lifted off. I noted some damage on one face where somebody looks like they have tried to prise apart the two crank cases:


There we have it, some pistons:


The bores do look pretty good, I will have to get them properly measured:


I also noted that two bolts have damaged heads on the oil cooler, that is why it is still on the block. Another job for the extractors.

Next job is to get the pistons off and then the con rods, getting towards the really interesting bits.

MC
 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
cobrars
Silverstone


Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 124
Location: Newcastle


PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pop Corn

Great work Thumb
_________________
Previous : TVR Cerbera 4.5
Current : VW Golf 25th Anniversary No 1398
Current : Porsche 911 996 C2 Manual With Full Hartech Engine & Gearbox Rebuild

Car Thread - http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=118834&highlight=
 
  
View user's profile Send private message
   
infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7352
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I think about it you should ideally change those AOS in the sump as they can catch metal swarf and you can't clean them out. I bought new ones for mine as I didn't want to take the risk.
_________________
http://euroroadtripper.blogspot.co.uk/

 
  
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
   
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   All times are GMT - 12 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum