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MC's M96.01 strip down and rebuild
- Thread starter MisterCorn
- Start date
infrasilver said:
£22
https://www.onlinebearings.co.uk/32...ular-Contact-Ball-Bearing-Polyamide-Cage.html
Well done MC, watching with interest
MisterCorn
Fuji
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2011
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- 9,410
911munKy said:
Excellent, thanks for that. It is only with the support of people like Baz, Demort, and other people who have been through this like Infrasilver that this is possible. I did a similar thread on M3cutters with a previous project and at a couple of points I was pulled up on things I had done wrong before it was too late. I am only frustrated that I am currently 5150miles awsy from my spanners according to Google. Please do shout up if anybody want anything measured or checked along the way.
I hope this won't fuel any paranoia about these engines. What it should give is a sample of 1 from somebody who isn't selling anything and has no axe to grind. That is not a dig at people like Baz, but I think all consumers are wary of stats from people who sell the solution. From what I have read these engines have a service life around where mine is now at 118k with bore ovality amd bearing wear, it will be interesting for me to see the state of it and to know the rebuild costs.
I am very happy to hear that you will supply liners and pistons Baz, it might well come to that if there is wear/ovality or if my urge to do bits 'whilst I am in there' overcomes me. Truth be told I have a poor record against temptation. I can resist pretty much anything else.
MC
bazhart
Barcelona
- Joined
- 20 May 2009
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- 1,343
Yes - when they first failed we enquired about the double row bearing availability from the manufacturer who confirmed it was a special no longer available. There is a std wider double row version but that would need modified parts. If the original type is available elsewhere use it without the seal!
We concluded the loads were higher than anticipated and that the bearing basic size was too small and the only satisfactory solution would be a larger ball bearing or a plain oil pressure fed bearing (like LN's).
A roller bearing takes more radial loads but the axial loads on a chain driven sprocket are high and we thought they were too much for a roller while we thought the shock loading may handicap a ceramic version.
Most will last for the period of one person's ownership so collating reliable statistics for the many alternative versions marketed today is very difficult. All we can do is relate the ones we see that were already changed but still eventually failed.
But probably almost any replacement ball or roller bearing of the same size will work OK for a reasonable length of time but will ultimately be similar to the failure statistics for factory units (may last for almost ever or fail sub-20K or be almost anywhere in between).
Because most of our work is rebuilding engines we preferred to replace the shaft with one using the now well proven larger ball bearing - better without its seal but you cannot do this unless the engine is stripped so other alternatives can be considered for a non-strip repair or replacement.
Baz
We concluded the loads were higher than anticipated and that the bearing basic size was too small and the only satisfactory solution would be a larger ball bearing or a plain oil pressure fed bearing (like LN's).
A roller bearing takes more radial loads but the axial loads on a chain driven sprocket are high and we thought they were too much for a roller while we thought the shock loading may handicap a ceramic version.
Most will last for the period of one person's ownership so collating reliable statistics for the many alternative versions marketed today is very difficult. All we can do is relate the ones we see that were already changed but still eventually failed.
But probably almost any replacement ball or roller bearing of the same size will work OK for a reasonable length of time but will ultimately be similar to the failure statistics for factory units (may last for almost ever or fail sub-20K or be almost anywhere in between).
Because most of our work is rebuilding engines we preferred to replace the shaft with one using the now well proven larger ball bearing - better without its seal but you cannot do this unless the engine is stripped so other alternatives can be considered for a non-strip repair or replacement.
Baz
MisterCorn
Fuji
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- 8 Jan 2011
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- 9,410
The engine has been moved to the garage with the tiled floor for the stripdown, it is a bit busy in there at the moment as there is a car on the ramp and other 'stuff' in the way, hopefully they will be out of the way in the next couple of weeks so I have a bit more space.
First job was to remove the sump.
I checked that the sump plug was loose so I can easily get it out later, then undo and remove the 13 bolts holding it in.
Then lever the sump off using the area on the left which sticks out.
From the small clean area on this part, and the ease with which the sump came off, I believe that the sump has already been removed and put back on. The fact that it wasn't sealed and that the oil was dirty inside leads me to believe it was taken off after the problem was discovered, and then put back on again.
The inside looks OK, nothing very interesting to report here:
I have turned the engine around and will be taking off the head for cylinders 1-3 next.
All small parts which are being removed like nuts are bolts are being bagged up in polythene bags and labelled so I don't just have a big bundle which I don't know what to do with later.
MC
First job was to remove the sump.
I checked that the sump plug was loose so I can easily get it out later, then undo and remove the 13 bolts holding it in.
Then lever the sump off using the area on the left which sticks out.
From the small clean area on this part, and the ease with which the sump came off, I believe that the sump has already been removed and put back on. The fact that it wasn't sealed and that the oil was dirty inside leads me to believe it was taken off after the problem was discovered, and then put back on again.
The inside looks OK, nothing very interesting to report here:
I have turned the engine around and will be taking off the head for cylinders 1-3 next.
All small parts which are being removed like nuts are bolts are being bagged up in polythene bags and labelled so I don't just have a big bundle which I don't know what to do with later.
MC
infrasilver
Moderator
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- 9,933
I would agree, looks like the sump has been off for inspection, they also removed a core plug by the looks of it.
infrasilver
Moderator
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- 9,933
Demort said:Bigger pictures so that i can zoom in please
3 rd picture looks like grit on the sump pan ?
Nothing on the strainer though .
Click on the image then when that opens click on it again and you will get a close up, looks like metal particles on base.
MisterCorn
Fuji
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- 8 Jan 2011
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- 9,410
The other core plug is in, just full of oil. Assuming you meal the one top left of the picture. I'll get a better closeup of the sump contents in the morning.
If there any particulat technique to open the oil filter to inspect it? It is still fitted.
MC
If there any particulat technique to open the oil filter to inspect it? It is still fitted.
MC
infrasilver
Moderator
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- 9,933
MisterCorn said:
I just cut the plastic ends off with a blade then roll open the concertina.
Very interesting to follow as you strip this down.
One thing I find myself wondering - how much is being left on the table with regards to the performance of these engines by the age (and therefore lack of sophistication when compared to current) of the ECU?
And to what extent does that performance gap widen (if at all, of course) when going to the 3.7, potentially with lumpier cams and optimised heads?
**Opens Syvecs website again**
One thing I find myself wondering - how much is being left on the table with regards to the performance of these engines by the age (and therefore lack of sophistication when compared to current) of the ECU?
And to what extent does that performance gap widen (if at all, of course) when going to the 3.7, potentially with lumpier cams and optimised heads?
**Opens Syvecs website again**
MisterCorn
Fuji
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2011
- Messages
- 9,410
A chunk more done and things are not looking good for this engine....
This is a closeup of the bits in the sump:
And one of some debris in the filter:
The engine was locked at TDC on cylinder 1 by using a pin in the crankshaft and making sure that the gap in the end of the camshaft is pointing away from the crankcase, after removing the camshaft end covers:
Camshaft locking tool was then adjusted and put in place:
Camshaft solenoid cover removed and the bolts replaced. I try to keep bolts where they come from whenever possible:
All bolts removed, working from the outside inwards:
Using a plastic mallet I then worked around the cover to release it. The sound changes as it releases becoming very hollow. the cover is then removed.
You can see the very clear wear on the bearings here. The lobes themselves look to be OK.
The four bolts holding on the main timing chain are removed and the timing pulley pulled off the end of the camshaft. By the look of some of the bolts somebody has clearly been in here before, I suspec they let their dog try to chew the bolts out:
The two end camshaft bearing covers are then removed along with the three long bolts which hold down the timing adjuster. Again the heads are not in good shape.
The camshaft and adjuster is then lifted from the head in one piece.
There is very definite and serious looking marks on the bearing faces on a few of the bearings in the head, also on the end bearing covers:
The baffle plate also looks like it has been attacked.
I am wondering what other horrors are lying further below. Right now I am not sure that this will ever be rebuilt. It looks like it will need new heads and new camshafts unless there is a way that these can be saved.
MC
This is a closeup of the bits in the sump:
And one of some debris in the filter:
The engine was locked at TDC on cylinder 1 by using a pin in the crankshaft and making sure that the gap in the end of the camshaft is pointing away from the crankcase, after removing the camshaft end covers:
Camshaft locking tool was then adjusted and put in place:
Camshaft solenoid cover removed and the bolts replaced. I try to keep bolts where they come from whenever possible:
All bolts removed, working from the outside inwards:
Using a plastic mallet I then worked around the cover to release it. The sound changes as it releases becoming very hollow. the cover is then removed.
You can see the very clear wear on the bearings here. The lobes themselves look to be OK.
The four bolts holding on the main timing chain are removed and the timing pulley pulled off the end of the camshaft. By the look of some of the bolts somebody has clearly been in here before, I suspec they let their dog try to chew the bolts out:
The two end camshaft bearing covers are then removed along with the three long bolts which hold down the timing adjuster. Again the heads are not in good shape.
The camshaft and adjuster is then lifted from the head in one piece.
There is very definite and serious looking marks on the bearing faces on a few of the bearings in the head, also on the end bearing covers:
The baffle plate also looks like it has been attacked.
I am wondering what other horrors are lying further below. Right now I am not sure that this will ever be rebuilt. It looks like it will need new heads and new camshafts unless there is a way that these can be saved.
MC
Sorry to see that MC
Looks like quite a bit of debris has been going round. Perhaps it failed before and it had some half assed 'rebuild'.
The grit in the sump tells a story.
I think the crank will be scored and maybe you'll find issue with a cylinder. (just my gut feeling, poss a bad D chunk repair).
I don't think there's many options for the heads when there's that much damage to the bearing saddles until someone develops a method to line bore them and add shells. Hope the other head is better.
Looks like quite a bit of debris has been going round. Perhaps it failed before and it had some half assed 'rebuild'.
The grit in the sump tells a story.
I think the crank will be scored and maybe you'll find issue with a cylinder. (just my gut feeling, poss a bad D chunk repair).
I don't think there's many options for the heads when there's that much damage to the bearing saddles until someone develops a method to line bore them and add shells. Hope the other head is better.
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