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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7557
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine has been metal on metal since day one and 118k miles in and is still OK. I will be inspecting everything once I have mine apart in the next couple of months.
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Metal:



on metal:



130k miles.

The pushrod end does look shaped like something (plastic cap?) was retained on the end of it. There is no evidence of whatever that might have been. The may well have been lost in a previous clutch change, I have no idea.

I measured the thickness of the metal in the locating divot in the fork end as best I could with a micrometer at 2.7mm. The metal of the arm is 4mm in flat places and around 3.2mm in other less aggressively shaped divots on the arm.

So it perhaps has worn somewhat, but has some way to go before breaking through. It will likely be fine for many many more miles.

However my clutch action did creak a little, this would likely be resolved by a plastic end for the slave (probably involves buying a new slave £65 unless someone has an old one knocking around?) and the updated 997 release arm and pin arrangement (£70).

If I can just get an end cap for the pushrod perhaps I would risk having the clutch slightly actuated at rest given the risk my pushrod never had a cap....

Ah, where to stop.

Last edited by wasz on Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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Marky911
Barcelona


Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 1457



PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Wasz.

I mentioned this to my Indy today as I was onto him about my gearbox etc.

He said every 996 should have the plunger cap. It isn't specific to later cars or certain years. Even if some didn't have it and you fitted one, the plunger is slightly spring loaded with the cylinder having an amount of reserve so any slight variation in length is taken up by the cylinders free travel. It would never be activating the clutch.

I suppose it's like the few mm of free travel you feel at the start of pressing the pedal on a hydraulic clutch. If there was no "spare" travel at the start of pressing the pedal, the clutch would always be slipping slightly.

Anyway that's my Indys view and he's been around all 911s since he was knee high.
Entirely your decision though and someone may have a conflicting view.

As for buying the cap only, you'd have to do a bit of searching. I had two cylinders, but only my the spare had an end on which I've now used otherwise I'd have happily given you it.

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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marky911 wrote:
Hi Wasz.

I mentioned this to my Indy today as I was onto him about my gearbox etc.

He said every 996 should have the plunger cap. It isn't specific to later cars or certain years. Even if some didn't have it and you fitted one, the plunger is spring loaded with the cylinder having an amount of reserve so any slight variation in length is taken up by the cylinders free travel. It would never be activating the clutch.

I suppose it's like the few mm of free travel you feel at the start of pressing the pedal on a hydraulic clutch. If there was no "spare" travel at the start of pressing the pedal, the clutch would always be slipping slightly.

Anyway that's my Indys view and he's been around all 911s since he was knee high.
Entirely your decision though and someone may have a conflicting view.

As for buying the cap only, you'd have to do a bit of searching. I had two cylinders, but only my the spare had an end on which I've now used otherwise I'd have happily given you it.

Thumb


Thanks a million for this.

Perhaps on mine and Infra's cars they wore through and fell off or were removed during a previous clutch change. (Again my car has a gold plated history, I am surprised when I find things not quite right!).

When I pulled my clutch slave out the rod and bellow seal were left behind in the bell housing... on a previous occasion the cap could have fallen off and rolled under the sofa.

Good to hear there is no danger in adding a cap. Now to find a cap.....
 
  
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deMort
Reims


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4451
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok its been answered but ill just confirm it .. plastic part on the slave cyl is standard , they all have it and from your pictures .. hmm ..

All i can say is that if i was doing the job i would be saying it needs a cyl and release arm.

Metal on metal is never good .. on a car the only places that are like that are lubricated .

If you are going to refit as is then put plenty of thick grease where the 2 parts meet .

As ive said ive seen them punch a hole through the release arm before and i mentioned this as ive seen a hole punched through before !!

It will also cause a creaking noise .. hell the plastic end has at times so a thin smear of grease wont hurt .

Anyways thats just IMHO .

Clutch bearing tube .. i always replace with a new clutch but if your not replaceing the clutch as its worn out then you could get away with it .

The brake pipe block .. from memory its a 13mm and an 11mm .. 2 different sizes to stop them getting mixed up .

AF is not used in europe its metric but 1/2 inch and 13mm are dam close in size .


EDIT ..

Just to say dont just fit a cap , either replace all or dont .. the cap will grind away very quickly as its a different size to the worn hole in the release arm .
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK credit card is coming out on a trip to the OPC.

I will get a 997 release arm and pin (as the old arm is NLA), slave cylinder and guide tube. I suppose I should change the gearbox input shaft seal too (£18 ) ?

I will be taking my clutch slave hose to Pirtek for some new ferrules and new flexy hose as the steel coil and the fitting on the other end are A1 (if i can undo the union...).

Once again, thanks for all the help everyone Smile
 
  
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deMort
Reims


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4451
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the seal aint leaking then dont bother .

Btw .. sorry for the bad news from me .. its all i seem to give these days .. sigh .
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
If the seal aint leaking then dont bother .

Btw .. sorry for the bad news from me .. its all i seem to give these days .. sigh .


No worries, gotta do it properly!

Todays effort:



Whoever had the idea of replacing the AOS with the engine in has a strange sense of humour. Fiddling with the hose connections that just did not want to slide out took forever. And then how to get the thing out when its loose?! My AOS has some oil in every orifice (except coolant passages) so it was probably on the way out.

Any tips for getting the new one back in gratefully received.




This brake line above the gearbox doesn't look too clever in the clips. I will replace.



And the shot you've all been waiting for.

Looks like my RMS has been leaking and / or the IMSB cover. What do people use to clean up the area? Rags and carb cleaner? Degreaser?

Flywheel seemed to be in spec, but felt a little "loose" so I will stick the new one on.

My old clutch disc was dated October 2003. So the first clutch lasted ~35k and the second 95k miles. I take that to mean the latter owners had good mechanical sympathy! Clutch was getting heavy and biting high - not slipping.

4hours today, mainly spent wrestling with the "simple" breather hoses on the AOS and getting it out through a tiny hole. I disconnected the other end of the top hose (T piece at pulley end of engine).

"Special" tools: T55 torx bit for the flywheel bolts. I made a flywheel lock from some scrap steel plate bolted to gearbox bolt and one clutch cover bolt.

Last edited by wasz on Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:56 am; edited 3 times in total
 
  
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deMort
Reims


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4451
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Main leak is the RMS but do it all whilst your there including the bolts above and below the RMS.

I would use brake cleaner to clean up the area .. what ever you use then be carefull at it will be flamable .

The brake line is what they look like just as they are about to let go , good call there as i would expect it to let go on the next hard brakeing .

AOS .. well they are a pain to do on a ramp let alone the floor ..

My hat off to you young sir .. i would be having a paddy about now .
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demort wrote:
My hat off to you young sir .. i would be having a paddy about now .


Thanks! I've calmed down now. I was 50:50 on dropping the engine and box together to do these jobs, I think I would recommend doing so to others.

An indy like yourself would probably be able to whip the AOS out and in 30 minutes with the gearbox off, but I spent a long time grappling with the fittings working out how to release them. I could do it again much faster......

Demort wrote:
the bolts above and below the RMS.


I suppose the procedure is:

remove / replace one bolt at a time, clean, threadlock and then sealant under the head?
 
  
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7557
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I had to replace an AOS in situ I was struggling because when the engine was built at the factory the engineer didn't care which way the hose clips were facing, unfortunately a few were impossible to get a tool on to undo as they were facing towards the engine.

I came up with the idea of just cutting/breaking the plastic tubes of the AOS then I could get at the hose clips once the AOS was out of the way and the hoses were loose. The AOS was going in the bin anyway so it didn't really matter.

I would do the same again if I ever needed to replace one with the engine in again.


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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mines a 3.4 so AOS slightly different.

Both the coolant lines had crimped connectors!!!

The lower one I could get a small screw driver in the crimp and lever it bigger to remove the hose.

The top one no chance. I disconnected the other end of the hose, on the t piece near the engine pulleys.

I will replace with stainless jubilee type. Good point about orientating the connectors for future removal.

The breather hoses... just squeeze and slide out... yeah right.
 
  
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deMort
Reims


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4451
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunatly your type is a pain to do , the last 2 i have attempted and i gave up and dropped the engine .. the bolts corroded so you cant get them out , the crimp connectors are a joke to get off and the pipes snap due to being old and brittle.

Might be a little easier with no gearbox but if i had the list of work you are doing then i wouldn,t struggle with it.

If im going to spend 5 + hours struggling and breaking parts to do it then sod it im going to spend 8 hours R&R the engine .

Most of what i work on are multiple jobs anyway so its not such a big deal .

Last one i did with a service advisor saying he was giveing me 3 hours to do it nearly ended up with me telling him to ... lol

I know in theory it should be a fairly quick job and im sure when these where far newer it was .. these days it aint .

So .. no i cant do them quick either Very Happy


EDIT

The 2 bolts and i normally replace with new OPC ones .. basically they can leak so either seal or replace with new .. from memory they where replaced with a torx type bolt .
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air Oil Bleeping Bleep Separator



3 hours yesterday.

Get new AOS into position all lined up with hoses, sweet.

try to push the bit into the engine... no go. try to lever it in, no go.

The tube that stick into the engine ain't going in. I measure the old one 16.8mm, I measure the new one 17.5mm, thats why.

More time grappling to get it out on the bench I remove the seal and use a sanding barrel in my drill to reduce it to 16.8mm.

More grappling to get it in a lined up with hoses, slips in nicely with some force.

Can I slide in the vacuum lines? - no.

The lower gores in with lots of force , but the upper isnt going in.

I think the o rings on the lines have hardened with 19 years and over 130k.

If anyone is reading this and tempted to do their AOS that has never been off before while the gearbox is out, just don't. Drop the engine instead or pay someone else to do it.

This is not even the main job I'm here to do, that would have been finished long ago!

Last edited by wasz on Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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alex yates
Brands Hatch
Brands Hatch


Joined: 06 Mar 2014
Posts: 13109
Location: The Ribble Valley, Lancashire

2000 Porsche 996 Carrera 4

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I'm not looking forward to. As far as I'm aware, the original is still on at 120k. Car doesn't use oil and crank case vac seems right so I just hope it has plenty of life left in it.
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex yates wrote:
Something I'm not looking forward to. As far as I'm aware, the original is still on at 120k. Car doesn't use oil and crank case vac seems right so I just hope it has plenty of life left in it.


Same here, no outward issues but I thought whilst the box is off and access "good" I'll just whip it off. Type 911 does the OE makers AOS for £40 so I thought why not.

My AOS had oil gunk in every port (except coolant ports), so was probably dying. Apparently oil gunk sits on the rubber diaphragm and rots it. Anywhere oil contacts rubber on engines it hardens and dies.

It might well come off / go back on a low mileage car really easy, but like I say I think O rings had hardened making it extra hard to get vac lines off / on. Fairly easy to change the o rings though I guess. You could even just by new vac lines about £50 each).

I perhaps should have dropped the engine a little further, but it as far as I dare.

Much easier with the engine dropped, then you can do all kinds of other little jobs. Sometimes (as with Marky911) the AOS mounting bolts seized up and round off too.... mine were OK.
 
  
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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just got my brake lines out, over box to RH caliper and from join under sill to under LH wing.

Will take them to the motorfactors to get some made up from cunifer. Will also replace the LH rear caliper hardline as the previous specialist neglected to do that when doing that side's line and flexy.

A new bleed nipple acts as a useful stopper for most fittings!
 
  
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deMort
Reims


Joined: 21 Mar 2015
Posts: 4451
Location: Brighton


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much i can say to help im afraid .. AOS and its plenty of grease / lubrication on any seals .

Try scotch bright on the hole the AOS enters ( sand it down basically ) .. it does tend to corrode and lever on any point you can .. youll never push it in by hand .

The pipe with the seal and the x2 tabs each side .. lack of access is the biggest head ache there .. may be a cable tie around the Aos pipe and the breather pipe then link the 2 with x2 cable ties .. pulling each one in turn might help pull it on.

think of a can of coke with a cable tie at the top and bottom then 1 down each side linking them all together .. thats the best way i can describe it Sad
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infrasilver
Fast & Furious
Fast & Furious


Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 7557
Location: East Midlands

2001 Porsche 996 Targa

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For assembling anything on the engine with seals I use silicone grease, it stops the oil/fuel attacking the seal/O rings rubber and also helps aid assembly. I have a small tin of it and it will probably last me my lifetime.

This is the same as what I use,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/391736567042?chn=ps&adgroupid=45132333541


I also got my slave cylinder through the post (collecting parts for my gearbox removal) and it does have a plastic cap on the end, it doesn't look particularly hardy though.


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wasz
Indianapolis


Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 2399


1999 Porsche 996 Carrera 2

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

infrasilver wrote:
For assembling anything on the engine with seals I use silicone grease, it stops the oil/fuel attacking the seal/O rings rubber and also helps aid assembly. I have a small tin of it and it will probably last me my lifetime.

This is the same as what I use,

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/391736567042?chn=ps&adgroupid=45132333541


I also got my slave cylinder through the post (collecting parts for my gearbox removal) and it does have a plastic cap on the end, it doesn't look particularly hardy though.



Thanks, I did lube the fittings and o rings but not got it in yet. Yep my new Sachs slave is also the same (cp4l £60).

Been wrestling with making my own cupra nickel (kunifer) brake pipes after being let down by local motor factor who said they would make me some up but didn't. So I bought a decent tool myself and made them.

I copied the bends in the old lines, regularly zip tied the new to old to follow, then simply(!) threaded them through.






Yes the over gearbox line is a PITA even with the gearbox removed, so much stuff in the way, can drop the coolant lines but even so... it would likely to be easier without pre bending the pipe. I got it in following the original route, clipped up and not contacting anything else so all is good.

When changing clutch / checking IMSB its all the stuff "while the box is out" that takes ages, not the job in hand itself......3 hours today.

Special tools: brake pipe flare tool (Laser 3434), little pipe cutter and pipe bending tool.

Last edited by wasz on Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
  
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