Debris in oil filter

ragpicker · 25 Jun 2016

Chris_in_the_UK said:
cheshire911 said:

I stand corrected then! I was told by a leading Indy during my research trying to decide on a C4S or a Turbo when I said all this IMS stuff worries me.

Click to expand...

Breaking News..... "leading Indy offers tales of 'smoke and mirrors'.."

Zingari, is that you? :grin:

cheshire911 · 25 Jun 2016

This post on Rennlist may clarify: See Brad Roberts' post with diagram of the Metzger and the NA engine which clearly shows there is no IMS bearing on a 996 Turbo (just 'clam shells' as he describes) - see link to the thread but Brad Roberts quotes:

Just so everyone is clear, these two pic's show the intermediate shaft for the TT/GT3 (and all air cooled 6cyl Porsche's for the last 60 years) and the intermediate shaft for the M/96 engines (which has ZERO in common with the air cooled or late 993 engine based water cooled engines) The TT/GT3 shaft VERY VERY rarely fails. It is not in a sealed roller bearing like the M/96 based engines. It literally sits in what amounts to 4 bearing clam shells. What you do not see in this pic is the shaft running the oil pump

http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/24756-intermediate-shaft-failure/

So the indy who told me the 996 Turbo doesn't have an IMS bearing was correct. It doesnt have a roller bearing but the shaft is supported by big-end style shells.

Another thread on Rennlist states:

"IMS is gear driven in the Turbo engine vs. chain driven in the NA 996 engine and furthermore doesn't have the ball bearing the NA 996 engine has. This doesn't make the IMS in the Turbo engine indestructible but given the number of these cars around and the age and number of miles they're racking up and for some the engine hp mods they receive the usage they're subjected to it doesn't appear the IMS is a weak link in the Turbo engine".

So no 'smoke and mirrors' from that indy.

Shurv · 25 Jun 2016

Tom, is it also worth removing the sump, and having a look to see if there's anything in there too?

infrasilver · 25 Jun 2016

Shurv said:
Tom, is it also worth removing the sump, and having a look to see if there's anything in there too?

Agreed, have a look in the sump to see what hasn't been picked up by the oil pick up.

If the bits are all non ferrous there is little chance of it being something of the main workings of the engine, you need to put a magnet on the bits to find out.

You will always get minor bits breaking off over time like chain guides and also gasket sealant will beak loose. If there is copper coloured metal this could be something like a crank bearing worn through.

Chains do break on the turbo but again it would be ferrous metal in the filter.

911tom · 25 Jun 2016

Thanks for all the advice. I think on this occasion I will leave it to the pros. I am a keen diyer as many on here know but this is beyond my comfort zone. As you say Marcus I could move the sump and inspect. My thinking is this will offer one of two outcomes. 1. there is not much to be seen. Great but what is the deal with the filter. 2. Debris in the sump. Okay now what....

One thing that has come to light is the filter is actually older than I thought. I normally do an oil and filter change every 6 months ish.... Last were November 14, Feb 15 and January 16. Now the last one I did in January I changed the oil and then could not find my filter spanner. As I had planned to drive it very little I did not bother changing it. This means the last new filter went in Feb 15 so is much older it should be. Only done around 8 - 10k miles though. In January I change a few oil related parts including one turbo oil tank, two oil lines and more recently the oil filler tube. Of course this was all done with car but it is possible this could be factor. Think I am clutching at straws though as there appears to be at least 3 different types of material found in the filter. Non of which appears to be magnets but look metallic. Some has a copper type colour, some looks more like aluminium. The biggest chunk which are a maximum of 2-3mm appear to be plastic but fairly soft.

Every cloud and all that. Attest I can coolant pipes welded and a few other preventative jobs done

infrasilver · 25 Jun 2016

The soft plastic will be excess sealant as there's nothing soft in an engine unless it's an oil seal breaking down? There is soft rubber on the chain guides in the M96 engine but I'm unsure of all the internals of the Turbo engine.

The copper colour would be my biggest worry and before a crank bearing wears to anything copper coloured it is silver metal so this could explain those particles. Fingers crossed it's nothing serious.

IMI A · 25 Jun 2016

Very sorry to hear this. Autofarm are bloody excellent but do not have as much experience on tuned turbos as a few other indys. On air-cooled Autofarm better than OPC. You're not going to know whats broken up inside without stripping the engine. Certainly do not drive it. Flat bed it to wherever you decide to send it. I'd get quotes from a few indys in advance for the strip down. Worst case good excuse to go 3.8 with forged rods and 12 inch head studs. Good for between 800 and 1500bhp. Hope its nothing expensive :thumbs:

Matt Seabrook · 25 Jun 2016

If you have the oil engine oil available you could get it analysed. I have not used a service like this but know of others that have. Here is a starter for ten. http://www.theoillab.co.uk/product-category/oil-testing/engine/ Like I said I haven't used them and there are others. Best of luck.

911tom · 26 Jun 2016

Sadly engine oil analasys won't be accurate as I drained the oil in my oil draining/gardening/gutter cleaning bucket. Must of the contaminants would have come from the bucket.

So who do we think would be most suitable to carry out the work? Autofarm and Hartech would be top of my list regarding most amount of engine builds. I think engine rebuilds are bread and butter for both. As a few have said though not many turbo engines fail so perhaps they are not as familiar with the turbo engine.... I bet the see plenty of m96/7 engines. So am I better getting in touch with someone like 9e? Do they do their engine work in house?

IMI A · 26 Jun 2016

911tom said:
Sadly engine oil analasys won't be accurate as I drained the oil in my oil draining/gardening/gutter cleaning bucket. Must of the contaminants would have come from the bucket.

So who do we think would be most suitable to carry out the work? Autofarm and Hartech would be top of my list regarding most amount of engine builds. I think engine rebuilds are bread and butter for both. As a few have said though not many turbo engines fail so perhaps they are not as familiar with the turbo engine.... I bet the see plenty of m96/7 engines. So am I better getting in touch with someone like 9e? Do they do their engine work in house?

9e build their engines in house. Their engine builder Adam Reardon is ex Porsche and Parr Motorsport. He's stripped and rebuilt Mezgers like yours literally every week of his life as Parr prepared race GT3s for various teams and still do. The Mezger 9e build in house. The m96/7 they just send to Hartech like everyone else I believe as more cost effective. As yours hasn't let go it will be much cheaper to refresh .(if needed - remember it may be fine) Whilst you're in there silly not to at least upgrade the rods, head studs as a minimum. Engine will be good for 1000bhp afterwards. This is their starter rebuild sticking with 3.6. :thumbs:

911tom · 26 Jun 2016

That answers my questions then :thumb: Ken expect a call tomorrow

IMI A · 26 Jun 2016

911tom said:
That answers my questions then :thumb: Ken expect a call tomorrow

May sound crazy but I'm envious of guys who have had their engines rebuilt by 9e.

Worth getting a quote from Autofarm too to rebuild to factory spec for comparison. They won't be able to do what Adam does re enlarge etc.

You can go 3.8, 3.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3!!!!! Personally I'd go 3.8 or 3.9 as you do not have to machine block so can return to standard anytime and also more reliable.

:mrgreen:

911tom · 26 Jun 2016

Thanks for all your help. I think a chat with Ken is in order. As nothing has gone pop this could just be the perfect excuse to get mods done. There's always a silver lining :hand:

BHZ661 · 27 Jun 2016

Morning Tom

sorry to hear potential problems , hopefully you will get some answers and soilid advice today on route to take with engine , :thumbs:

NineExcellence · 27 Jun 2016

Tom,

Sorry didn't see this yesterday. Have sent you an email in response to yours.

As a general note, with oil filters, what I would say is that it is not uncommon to have a reasonable amount of debris in them. It is not always a sign of something terminal, just the oil filter doing its job. Engine is moving parts etc so for example plastic debris is in most.

Whilst seeing metal in an oil filter is always alarming at first, and there is always a cause, there is always a general level of swarf, just like gearboxes as well. It really depends on how big the chunks are.

When the oil is tinted silver in colour, that is the normal time to think it is serious, but that is associated with other issues like misfiring, car not running well as so on.

Ken

Debris in oil filter

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