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Toml
Trainee


Joined: 05 Mar 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Cambridge


PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject: TTV Racing lightweight flywheel - what clutch kit? Reply with quote

Hello all, my name's Tommy and as this is my first post I'll provide a quick intro.

I've recently bought a 'driver spec' 2002 Carrera 2. By that I mean it's a manual and light with no sunroof nor any extra stereo option. Actually I've just told my first lie on this forum - it has a CD changer Very Happy

The car will be used as a weekend car including track days and as such I am now sending it to a Porsche independent for some work.

I've been reading up on lightweight flywheels for 996s and have decided on a TTV Racing one. I've had a TTV flywheel in the past in an M3 track car I had so I am happy with the brand and their quality. The price is also very good. Much cheaper than I can find the AASCO fly and less than half the price of the RPM Technik fly which, after receiving a quote from them, it seems is exactly the same part as the TTV one!!

So my question is does anyone already have a TTV lightweight flywheel and, if so, what clutch kit are you running?Even if you don't have a TTV fly, can anyone advise what clutch kit to get?

Many thanks!
 
  
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the 911UK madhouse..... Very Happy

Sounds like a nice car and little project, and whilst I'm not aware of this make of flywheel I've emailed them as am planning something similar on mine.

I would probably stick with the stock oem Sachs clutch and just fit a new one which should be more than upto the task IMHO.

No doubt you will be checking a few other things whilst the engine is out for the flywheel and clutch as this will be an ideal time to look at rms, ims seal and bearing and remove the dust shield for better lubrication. Also consider a low temp thermostat and think about fitting a new air oil separator.

Will watch with interest

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996lee
Hockenheim


Joined: 26 Aug 2014
Posts: 706
Location: Nottingham


PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You found your way over here then Tommy Thumb
Think we need an intro with all the family porsche history too Wink

N look forward to hearing how you get on with the lwfw as it's on my list of things to do
Behind a fair few other bits though Laughing
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2001 Carrera 4 aero all the way!!
 
  
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Toml
Trainee


Joined: 05 Mar 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Cambridge


PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Harv. I think the stock clutch is rigid and I would prefer a sprung hub clutch to reduce the noise as much as possible. I think I will ring them myself tomorrow and see what they know about suitable clutches. I'll update in this thread.

And yes I will be having other work done including an LN IMS, new RMS, RSS engine mounts, new water pump and low temp stat and possibly a pair of Dansk silencers.
 
  
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Toml
Trainee


Joined: 05 Mar 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Cambridge


PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

996lee wrote:
You found your way over here then Tommy Thumb
Think we need an intro with all the family porsche history too Wink

N look forward to hearing how you get on with the lwfw as it's on my list of things to do
Behind a fair few other bits though Laughing

Hi Lee Cool

OK so here's a fuller intro copied from another forum.

I've always wanted a Porsche ever since my Dad started owning them from around the beginning of the 80s. He started with a 924 Le Mans. Nothing special, just a special edition trim level I reckon but don't quote me. Then he got a 924 turbo. Here I am with it, as a very lanky and ugly young boy!



After that came an '84 911 Carrera targa in silver with Martini stripes and then after that, the Daddy of them all and the one that I hold most fond memories of, a 1979 930 turbo in Minerva Blue



That car came to such an unfortunate end through neglect, made worse by the fact that it was sold for a pittance a few years back just before the recent boom in prices. If memory serves me right, he got around £7K for it frustrated
 
  
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice 930, such a shame about its demise.

I'm sure there is an interchangeability for the sprung friction plate though how much difference it would make to noise reduction or chatter at idle would be one for the specialists that have fitted both.

Not a huge fan of any of LN's IMS bearing retrofits and you need to confirm the old one is toast as fitting a new one in situ can be a two edged sword. If you do need to replace it just spec a new one from the old and at any decent bearing supplier. Cost will be about £15 for the part assuming you have the single row version.

What's the mileage on your car?
 
  
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poppopbangbang
Nürburgring


Joined: 25 May 2015
Posts: 480



PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be careful with the solid/lightweight flywheel option. The M96 engine has no mass damper/harmonic damper aside from the standard dual mass flywheel which by its operation as a sprung mass does have an element of harmonic dampening to it on the engine side of things.

The obvious elephant in the room in this is that Porsche supply cars fitted with single mass flywheels from the factory, however these engines are balanced as a single rotating assembly with the flywheel in place and are not the same as simply bolting one to the back of an M96 engine which isn't the best balanced bit of kit from the factory!

The issue is present on the GT3 as well with failures when the light weight single mass flywheel from the RS is fitted. Porsche state the following failure modes:

"Since the 911 GT3 engine application is designed for the dual-mass flywheel, conversion to the single-mass flywheel results in the following problems and consequences:

• The single-mass flywheel causes fluctuations and vibration in the lower rpm range, thereby reducing the smooth-running performance of the engine.


• The crankshaft is subjected to one-sided loading, causing stress peaks that can result in damage to the crankshaft.


• The one-sided loading of the crankshaft can cause the pulley to come loose, resulting in damage to the belt drive and engine.


• Any damage relating to conversion or damage that can be attributed to conversion is not covered under warranty.

"

What this translates to is the crank snaps in half, the crank bearings fail or the front pulley drops off.... neither are particularly graceful failure modes!

I believe the GT3 RS also has a hamonic balancer buillt into its front pulley whereas the standard GT3 and M96/M97 cars do not but I'm sure someone else can confirm this.

If you do want to go single mass then the best option would be to engineer a tuned harmonic balancer to fit in place of the standard front pulley or have the rotating assembly balanced with the flywheel in place which is what is done with the Cup car engines and GT3 RS engines.

I'll now wait whilst 20 people tell me they have them and they are fine but it's always worth looking at what the use is for those cars as if all they do is pootle around below 4K RPM most of the time they probably will last a long time, if you are building a track orientated car which will live at high revs it becomes much more of an issue.
 
  
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Toml
Trainee


Joined: 05 Mar 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Cambridge


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harv wrote:
Nice 930, such a shame about its demise.

I'm sure there is an interchangeability for the sprung friction plate though how much difference it would make to noise reduction or chatter at idle would be one for the specialists that have fitted both.

Not a huge fan of any of LN's IMS bearing retrofits and you need to confirm the old one is toast as fitting a new one in situ can be a two edged sword. If you do need to replace it just spec a new one from the old and at any decent bearing supplier. Cost will be about £15 for the part assuming you have the single row version.

What's the mileage on your car?

The car has 82,000 miles on it.

OK so after lots of procrastination over the bearing and the flywheel I've decided to stick with the LN and drop the lightweight flywheel. The LN decision was particularly tough because there's just sooooo much differing opinion on the forums. If only for a placebo type effect, I just think my mind will rest easier knowing an LN bearing is in the car rather than a new standard bearing.

With regard to the flywheel, thanks for the info Poppop. I had read that information before but was going to put caution to the wind. However, I've thought things through more and decided that since I've only just bought the car I should just enjoy it as it is for now. Build up a rapport with it and some trust. I could have put in the flywheel and just hated the noise which would not set off the relationship well!

So the car is being booked in with Revolution Porsche in Brighouse for the LN bearing and a new Sachs clutch. A new DMF if required too. RSS engine mounts and a low temp stat.

Thanks for the food for thought.
 
  
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Chris_in_the_UK
Estoril


Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 3579
Location: Harrogate


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would never, ever take an LN bearing over a standard one.
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris_in_the_UK wrote:
I would never, ever take an LN bearing over a standard one.


+1

If the bearing has play upon inspection then change it, LN are smoke and mirrors and their bearings have failed in use having spoken with the specialists so your really not buying any peace of mind over and above a £15 bearing made by FAG etc.

I wouldn't rule out a light weight flywheel and there are a few guys on here running them. Be aware the broken crank stories seem to be coming from across the pond and were encountered on hard run race engines. You could argue an old failing dual mass flywheel is probably worse for vibration than a lwfw, I think Infrasilver had a crank fail through this issue..

There are harmonic balance pulleys avail should you feel the need to fit one and I would think TTV racing would be able to supply or fabricate something.

Let us know when the mods begin

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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been speaking with TTV racing and they won't sell the flywheel to the public so this is a bit of a lost cause really in terms of cost and price point.

The quote their sales firm has given is £700 Dont know
 
  
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Toml
Trainee


Joined: 05 Mar 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Cambridge


PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harv wrote:
Been speaking with TTV racing and they won't sell the flywheel to the public so this is a bit of a lost cause really in terms of cost and price point.

The quote their sales firm has given is £700 Dont know

Sorry Harv I've only just seen this. Seems my email notifications aren't set up.

Here's the link to the flywheel on Part-Box http://www.part-box.com/product_info.php?products_id=87377
 
  
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Harv
Suzuka


Joined: 18 Sep 2014
Posts: 1204



PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link, looks very well made

I can confirm the 996.2 RS dosent have a dampened pulley but was under the impression it runs a forged crank and likely to be balanced with the single mass flywheel and pulley as one unit before assembly.

How are you getting on with your driver spec C2, hope all is well Drive
 
  
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Toml
Trainee


Joined: 05 Mar 2016
Posts: 55
Location: Cambridge


PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting on with it very well indeed! The driving experience is so good compared to my previous M cars and a world away from my daily car.

However it's currently at Revolution Porsche in Brighouse and into day 3 of remedial works. I've just had an updated invoice through due to extra works that were required and my wallet is taking a serious hit!

I will start a 'journal' thread when I get the chance.
 
  
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